Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective

Show Intro and Disclaimer

Kylo: You are listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk!, Is a digital space for students at PCC experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ˿����Ƶ PCC Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, . On Spotify, on�� , and .

Meet Here Together

Asher: Welcome back listeners to another episode on Let’s Talk!. My name is Asher, and today I’m joined by representatives from the . Can you guys start by introducing yourselves to our listeners?

Angela: Asher, thank you for having us. My name is Angela Martin. I’m the executive director of the Here Together Oregon Coalition.

Asher: Thanks for joining us, Angela! And, Alesha?

Alesha: Hi everyone. I am Alesha. I am also with the Here Together Coalition. I lead communications for our team. Thank you for having me today. I will just pause and say that there’s a really strong chance that Angela’s gonna be your gal for all these questions.��

Asher: That’s totally fine. Thank you so much guys for taking the time out to talk to us. We did hear from you from our from the KBOO Live; . Thank you so much.��

Coalition Mission Origins

Asher: What is “Here Together” Coalition, and what does the organization do, and also what’s the mission?

Angela: “Here Together” came together in 2019 in response to a need for funding wraparound services. Our community had said “yes” to affordable housing bonds, so building the structures that were desperately needed. But, we needed the funding for the services and the rent support, that really build that bridge. So, the Here Together Coalition was the champion of the regional supportive housing services measure. Back in 2019, it was passed by voters in 2020.

Asher: Is that the origin story or is there more to it? And what’s the gap that was filled when Here Together was created?

Angela: Those are great questions. Here Together was formed in response to a need for funding that would provide services to people experiencing homelessness. Yes, an affordable home is a critical piece of that, but without rent support, case management, job training, access to medical health, behavioral health; we know that people will not be entirely successful. We need both, housing plus services, to help people transition from long periods of homelessness to a life of stability and health.

Asher: Yeah, definitely. I feel like that’s a very important thing, especially with the current state of homelessness here in Portland.��

Portland Homelessness Today

Asher: How would you describe that right now in your perspective?

Angela: I would describe the current state of homelessness as heartbreaking, frustrating, and politically fraught. And, the end result is that our neighbors who find themselves forced to sleep without a roof over their head, or are struggling to hold on to the roof. They’re the ones caught in the crossfire of this chaos. That often feels like what is standing in place of a system. It’s important to understand that Here Together is unique in this coalition, because we purposely brought folks together around a proverbial table who don’t always see eye to eye, who don’t always come from the same lived experience. So, our coalition is providers, it’s people with lived experience, it’s leaders of faith in its business associations. So, as you can imagine, the conversations around our table can be very robust, there’s a lot of learning, and we don’t always start off in a place of agreement, but we work toward that agreement. That’s something that I believe really makes the coalition unique and important, because that’s what the public is doing. Coming at this from different perspectives, all seeking the same thing. A future where homelessness is rare and brief, in our community.

Asher: Definitely. Yeah, I totally agree with that. Just the whole idea of the community coming together in such a strong way against homelessness is such a big thing. And, I didn’t really even know about homelessness until I came to the States. Although I was born in Texas, at a very young age, I moved out of the states and I was very sheltered, I feel like. Only until I started working and then coming to school here in Oregon did I just see the state of how downtown Portland is like, and just the homelessness of the different people there. I started to educate myself with that, and I’m so glad that you’re here to educate me also by just answering questions and stuff.��

Myths and Root Causes

Asher: What are some common misconceptions people have about homelessness in this city? I’m also asking for myself too, because I feel like there’s a lot of different sorts of misconceptions about homelessness. In the idea of “they’re choosing to be homeless”.

Angela: We’ll address some of those, but I first wanna start off by giving a lot of credit to the public. The public is very sophisticated. Most people I talk to understand that homelessness happens at the intersection of systemic failures. An economy that is not delivering jobs that pay. A housing wage, a rental market that has escalated, beyond the reach of majority of folks in our community. Then that intersection of personal crisis; whether it’s a job loss, experience of domestic violence, divorce, or struggling with untreated mental health or substance use disorder. The intersection, where there is only shreds of a safety net, is where homelessness occurs. In terms of misconceptions? Yes, Asher, I do hear some people say those common tropes; “people choose homelessness” or “they want to live the homeless life”. But, anyone that has spent any time, getting to know who is homeless in our community, having conversations. That myth is quickly stripped away. For example, anyone who goes out and sees some of our partners, like the folks at Cultivate Initiatives, who run job training programs, see a line around the block of people who are experiencing homelessness, lining up for an opportunity to have a job internship. So, they see that homelessness isn’t born out of laziness. It is born out of lack of opportunity for gaining employment skills, getting into the workplace so that you have a job that helps you pay the rent.

Asher: Thank you for answering that question. Yeah, that’s a great one.��

Asher: I totally agree with you on the idea of housing prices just skyrocketing in recent years. And, it’s even difficult for me, who has a job, to be able to afford just rent and live paycheck to paycheck kind of deal.

Angela: it wasn’t always this way. When I look back at the data in 1970s, here in Portland, Oregon, somebody working a minimum wage job was able to afford a modest two bedroom apartment. That person today, working a minimum wage job at our higher minimum wage, is over a thousand dollars a month short from affording that same apartment. So, in that generation, we have seen wages stagnate, we have seen rental prices go up, and the supply of affordable housing go down. That is the math problem behind our homeless crisis.

Asher: $1,000. That’s hard to believe. And you say that’s…��

Angela: 1970s, is when you could work a minimum wage job in Portland, Oregon, and afford a modest two bedroom apartment. Today, there is no way for somebody working a minimum wage job to afford a modest two bedroom, let alone, a one bedroom apartment. So, we’re setting people up to fail, and far too many of us are on the brink of homelessness any given month.

Barriers to Getting Help

Asher: How do individuals experiencing homelessness navigate services and where do they get stuck in the whole process of things? Just the whole idea that there are a lot of people who are homeless, and I feel like there’s a lot that get tangled in the system of trying to get the help that they need. They probably need different sorts of needs and it’s hard to just figure out what needs come in first kind of thing.

Angela: I’m gonna start off with something that we don’t even think of as services. And, that is taking care of your personal needs. I’m gonna talk about it from a female perspective; there are women experiencing homelessness, living unsheltered, who have to start off their day thinking about where am I gonna go to the restroom? How am I going to find a place for a shower? How am I going to just take care of my basic needs? I share this because it really defies some of that myth; going back to the question you asked of, “what myths are there?”. That there is this lazy homeless life. It’s actually the opposite. Piecing together personal care needs, feeding yourself, safety… All of this consumes so much of a person’s mental energy. That there is often little left to thinking about how am I going to access things that feel opaque to me; “I don’t know where they are. How am I gonna access those so that I can get myself out of this situation?”. And, then you have the issue of trust. When you are living in a system that has frankly failed you, you start to develop natural trust issues. So, when someone comes and says, “Hey, we wanna help!”, “Hey, sign up here for services!”, and you end up on a wait list, with no end in sight, that erodes your trust a little bit more. Or, when you accept help and go to a shelter where you are actually feeling less safe than you were in your tent, or your car that erodes trust. So, one of the barriers that people experiencing homelessness must first face is, it’s hard to get through any given day and get your personal needs met and have enough left to think about how am I going to make a plan? How am I gonna access services that sometimes feel like they’re rejecting me?

Asher: Just thinking about it. It does sound like there are a lot of just contributing factors of trying to get the help needed but, like you said, it requires trust in the long run of things. I feel like in a lot of situations there are a lot of wait lists because the need is just so big, especially here in Portland, as far as homelessness goes.��

Here Together Role

Asher: How does Here Together fit into all that? I’m curious to know.

Angela: So, our goal, as I mentioned earlier; we were born out of the need for wraparound services to be complimentary with affordable housing that was being built. Now, several things are true. We do not have enough affordable housing in this community, and we do not have enough services. But, we do have an opportunity to take this regional resource and leverage it to the best of its ability. And, that’s what Here Together is about. We seek to listen to the needs of people experiencing homelessness, the expertise of people who have put themselves on the front lines of solving homelessness, the social workers, the behavioral health specialists. The Here Together Oregon Coalition does not provide direct services. Instead, we create the space to discuss and debate how the programs are structured, how the funding is distributed across our community so that we can realize a future where homelessness is rare and brief. Asher, it might be interesting to take the conversation in this direction. I just wanna be really forthright and honest with the listeners.��

Asher: Yeah, for sure. Add anything you would like.

Public Debate and Bridge Analogy

Angela: Part of our role right now is to help understand where the public is in its debate and its demands around homelessness. And, in doing that, I’ve learned a few things. Number one, for far too long we treated public frustration, anger, perhaps even a little bit of fear, as something to be shamed and not named. And, I really do believe that was the wrong approach. Because, what I’ve learned is that someone can, both, hold frustration and hold compassion in their hand at the same time. And, that’s where the public is. We need to respect those feelings of frustration while also uplifting the compassion and empathy that, I know, most people have for their neighbors experiencing homelessness. By doing that, we help the public get into, a more full way, the most important role they have; and that is continuing to demand that our elected leaders invest in solving this issue, versus what I see happening right now. And that is the public getting into the role of experts in demanding particular solutions. That’s become a very dangerous place for us to be in the public absolutely should demand, “we wanna see homelessness as rare and brief. We wanna see a reduction in the number of tents on our streets. We wanna see people in our community thriving”. But, when it gets to the place that our elected leaders feel compelled to listen to how the problem gets solved from the public. We’ve gone in the wrong direction. Let me give you an analogy, think about the I5 bridge. Right now there’s a robust public debate; should it have more lanes for cars? Should it have infrastructure for light rail? Should it have both? Or something else entirely? That is exactly the right conversation for the public to be having. That’s democracy working. But, nobody is asking the public to calculate the load tolerances or to design the foundation. We don’t put that engineering up for a vote and, if we did, if the loudest political pressure overrode the structural engineers. The bridge would fall down. And that’s precisely what we have done with homelessness. We have allowed political pressure rather than data and people who know this work, including people who’ve lived it, to drive the tactics around how we solve it. And that place that we’re in right now? Where public demand for any one tactic like, let’s do sweeps, let’s have this type of shelter and not that type of shelter. That is complicating an already complex social problem.

Asher: That’s a great iteration of just the I5 bridge.��

How Listeners Can Help

Asher: How can we, as well as, the listeners and myself help as a community in the process of making homelessness brief and short.

Angela: There’s several things the public, can and I hope, will do. Number one, continue to center the needs of our community. I believe the public needs to continue demanding that our elected leaders address this problem, make investments, find solutions. That is an important role for the public to play. The education piece, exactly what you’re doing with this program, Asher. “Why are people homeless? What are the myths?”… Continue to educate ourselves. The third thing is we need recenter and ask for this problem to be addressed by those who have done the schooling gotten, the degrees lived, the experience firsthand; those are the folks closest to what the solutions need to look like, and we need to reinvest in trusting those. Just as we trust our engineers to build a sound bridge, I trust our social workers to build a sound homeless response system.

Asher: I’m hoping that a lot of our listeners, who are listening to this, are able to help out in the community. Whether, it’s providing food for those who need it or, like you said, reaching out to local leaders, “Hey, what are you doing in this situation with the homelessness? We wanna know what’s going on.”, educating ourselves and asking the right questions. I really hope I’m able to make this podcast, the best it can be by asking the right ones, especially to you.��

Angela: Asher, you’re helping all of us understand this more, and I hope that the conversation doesn’t stop here.��

Community Conversations Program

Angela: In fact, one of the things Here Together is doing is hosting . You can go to our website; and sign up to host a community conversation. What does that look like? That is you bringing together 10 of your friends in your place of work, your place of worship, your backyard. We provide a trained speaker; these are folks who maybe themselves had experienced homelessness or they work on the front lines as a social worker, as a case manager. We come and have a honest conversation with your community about what’s working, what’s not, and what we can do together to make improvements. Those community conversations are a really important way for all of us to continue, working for the community that we all want.

Asher: I’ll have to look into that. That sounds very interesting. Getting a lot of my coworkers together and just talking about homelessness. I feel like that would be fun.

Angela: Asher, it is actually fun. Just last week, I hosted a community conversation. I was invited by the folks at “”, which is a senior living center right near Lloyd’s Center. So, I got to be in a room of 40 individuals, all of them retired senior citizens. It was such a robust conversation. I learned something, I believe they learned something, and we all walked outta there with a renewed sense that we’re part of a community that cares, part of a community that wants to find a better way forward. Alesha, have I missed something that you would suggest I add to the conversation?

Alesha: No, I am really glad that you threw in some information about our community conversations. I feel they’ve been a really strong space for people to both hold their frustration and their compassion in the same hand, and would really encourage any listener to go to our website to check out more information about those.

Asher: Switching gears back into the whole idea of figuring out what the issue is with homelessness.��

Policies Funding and Treatment Gaps

Asher: What policies at the local or state level are helping and which ones are falling short?

Angela: We have a lot of policies, a lot of strategies that work quite well, for the individuals. Things like case management services coupled with rental vouchers to make housing affordable and accessible. That’s the formula that works for a lot of folks who’ve been experiencing homelessness for a long time. Where we see complications? Well, first, the biggest complication coming at us is the constant fluctuation of funding. I am sure many of your listeners are aware our federal government has been defunding or slashing the money available for housing healthcare support services. Well, when the federal government decreases the amount of money it spends on these things, we have to make up the difference. And, folks in this community have stepped up, but we’re now having to stretch those dollars even further because the funding holes are getting bigger. Number two, we are seeing an increased acuity of folks experiencing homelessness with an onslaught of cheap and dangerous drugs, far too few slots for treatment and recovery, coupled with untreated mental health, and far too slots for addressing a person’s mental health needs. All of these have come together to form, I would say, the “perfect storm”. But, I don’t wanna use the word “perfect”. “A storm”, that is really driving a lot of the complications in our system right now.

Asher: Yeah, that sounds so complicated. I totally understand that. Especially with government, just like slashing funds and everything, it’s very difficult, especially just for those of us who aren’t even having to face homelessness. I can’t imagine how difficult it is on that level of services needing to make up the funds; even with community members trying to pitch in and everything. How are the efforts in that, if you don’t mind me asking?

Angela: How are the efforts in making up the funds?

Asher: Yes. How does that look like?

Budget Landscape and Deficits

Angela: Well, let me give you a snapshot of the funding landscape. This snapshot is from 2024, so there are ways in which it’s already changing. In 2024, our regional supportive housing services measure, this is the one that was voter passed, paid for more than 40% of services, rental vouchers, case management. So, 40% of our homeless services system was paid for through local resources. Federal Government was contributing about 17% towards what it costs to keep people housed and connected to services. That number is going down even more, the 17% government is contributing. We see risks on the near horizon and out a year or two with expected cuts to food stamps, Medicaid, and a big shift in how the federal government funds affordable housing. Our community is gonna have to absorb that. Either through adding to local resources or cutting those services so that fewer people get access to it. And that’s the debate we’re having right now. As the budget season is upon us, we know that Multnomah County is facing a $68 million reduction in how much money is available to fund homeless services across the county. The debate on how we make up for that is real and will include some painful decisions. Painful decisions about how do we contract a system, who isn’t going to get services, and what are we gonna do to prevent people from being exited from a shelter that’s closing and landing right back up on the street. Nobody wants that outcome. So, now is the time that the public has an opportunity to weigh in and, again, talk about their desired outcomes. Letting your elected officials know; we don’t want to see people ending back up on the streets. We’ve got to continue making headway. So, I’ll leave it there.

Asher: Thanks for giving me the rundown of just the budgeting of houseless funding and everything. I feel like that’s very educational and for a lot of listeners who don’t even know about the situation at hand, I feel like that’s where we need to understand just how difficult it is.��

Sorting Headlines and Trust

Angela: Asher, it’s so hard for the public right now who are working to pay attention to their lives, their kids, their work, and then they’re able to keep an eye on this through some headlines. Well, the headlines have been chaotic. You hear that, “The City of Portland has found one hundred million dollars it didn’t know its had”. So, you get this impression that there’s more money than we ever knew and more money than we need, and then you hear “Multnomah County has a big budget deficit”. What is true? What is not true? It becomes very complicated. Here are the facts. Both things are true. There are short term, one-time monies that the City of Portland identified. Some of which can be spent, again, for a one time expenditure on homeless services. And, Multnomah County will be planning out its next year’s budget with $68 million less than it’s spent this year. So, tough decisions are going to have to be made. It’s likely also to be true that when the City of Portland and our elected officials work on their budget, our budget, the City of Portland’s budget for the next year, they will also be facing tighter budget than the year before. So, those one-time monies might lead to the impression of, “Hey, our local governments just got money coming out everywhere.”. That isn’t the case moving forward, and our system needs to rely on ongoing services, not one time infusions of money.

Asher: I feel like with that kind of money just gets moved around a lot and like it gets placed into places that we don’t even realize it gets placed in? And, correct me if I’m wrong with that too. I have no idea!

Angela: Hey, you’re not alone. You’re not alone. Even people who strive to stay on top of the information find themselves wondering, “what’s happening over here? What’s happening over there?”. It’s hard to track it all. And, I think a person shouldn’t have to do that. I always suggest to folks, find out who you trust. Is it your local homeless services provider? Is it an organization like Here Together? Is it another housing advocacy organization? And, look to them to help distill the information about what’s happening and ask them hard questions. But, trying to sort it all out individually, it can be overwhelming.

Asher: Oh yeah, definitely. There’s so many different kinds of information just all over the place, like you were saying, and it’s hard to know which one is true and which one is false, and not just about this.

Angela: Yeah. And, there’s a concerted effort to encourage the public to distrust the people who actually have the information the organizations and the people closest to, the issue. So, not only was it difficult, but there’s a cadre of political consultants and messengers who, for the last six years, have been working to help the public mistrust the folks providing services; casting them as the homeless industrial complex. That framing was never analysis, it was a political strategy designed to defund services and destroy trust in the people delivering them. So, now the public having had this play out for years and years, is left in a place of “who should I trust? Who can I trust?”. And. That’s a really hard place to be.

Asher: Oh yeah, definitely. And, the same thing just ties into the homelessness situation of, “who can I trust?”. I feel like that’s the biggest thing.��

Partners, Newsletter, and Data

Asher: What are some organizations that your coalition is in partnership with, that we can trust? In a world where there’s a lot of things that are not trustworthy, and are “not sure what is true”.

Angela: Yeah. Folks that wanna know more, learn more, about how we partner; I would encourage them to look at our website. Because, we do list coalition partners there. But, even more important, Alesha does an amazing job putting together a monthly news analysis. It’s a compendium of what’s happening, what are the data points, where can I learn more? Along with those narrative stories, the personal stories, of success and analysis of the policies that need to be improved in order to drive more success. So, we put out a monthly newsletter called . That’s one way to just stay on top of it, be able to follow links to the latest stories and connect with organizations delivering services, as well as, associations that are standing behind the services that are being delivered.

Asher: Thanks for that. Yeah, I’ll definitely put a link to “Happening Now”. Is there a way to access this newsletter, or do we need to sign up for it?

Angela: You can read past editions online, for those that don’t wanna sign up for something. But, if you want more current information, you can get it delivered to your inbox by simply signing up. I would also point out, our local governments do have a wealth of information available to you. has a data rich site where you can see inflow and outflow. They’ve developed a by name list of who is experiencing homelessness. No, you’re not gonna get the name of anybody. You’re not gonna see that “Stan” is experiencing homelessness. But, you’re gonna be able to see that every month in Multnomah County, about 1,400 people become homeless and, that same month, about 1,100 or 1,200 people escape homelessness. So, you’re gonna see the math and the charts that explain what you see in the streets. That while the solutions are happening, every month, services are being delivered, the problem does feel like it’s getting worse. And, through this new database, you’re able to understand, in a way you weren’t able to before, what exactly is behind that. So, I encourage folks, go check that out. has a website that helps you see what’s happening at the regional level; they actually tally the numbers. “How many housing rental vouchers have been delivered?”, “How many eviction preventions have happened?”, “How many new shelters have been sustained or built thanks to these regional dollars?”. So, you can see those numbers right there. And, then if you really wanna dig in, the Metro website also includes a link to every single county’s quarterly and annual report. These are data rich documents that show you the accounting, show you what’s happened, talk about the results, where what’s worked, and what hasn’t. Now, fair warning, these are 100 page documents. So, you can read them yourself, or you can read our analysis of them as they come out.

Asher: Yeah. I was going to say, that’s a lot of information. I don’t know how I would even ask the proper questions and get through the right channels to get the information needed. A hundred pages! That’s impressive, honestly! Thanks for that, Angela, I appreciate it.��

Biggest Changes Needed

Asher: What changes would make the biggest difference right now for this population? You’ve been saying that there’s a lot of different sort of circumstances going on, but at this very moment, in this certain time, 2026, what’s the biggest difference that would turn the tables for homelessness?

Angela: Greater collaboration and coordination. No one single source of money is going to be able to provide the services and the rental supports and the housing at the scale we need. So, we need to be braiding a lot of different sources of funding, federal, state, local. So, the biggest improvement would be in mapping the sources of funding, laying that against the population that is experiencing homelessness, so that we have a more comprehensive understanding of the opportunity and a more comprehensive understanding of what piece each of those funding sources contributes to the solution. It’s complicated work, but we have to go that way. Because, again, no one single source of funding is gonna get this done. The next thing, that will make the biggest difference, is we need to reinvest in trusting in the experts. I’ll go back to the bridge analogy. I absolutely will never cross a bridge that was built based on public input of how much cement, how much steel, et cetera, et cetera. But, yet we are allowing a homeless services system to be built that doesn’t fully center the expertise of the people who are doing this work. From our local experts that work internal to the government, to the providers who work external to the people who live it. Those are the folks that are closest to the issue and need to be the ones we rely on for developing the solution.

Asher: Thank you for sharing that.��

Success Stories

Asher: Do you have any success stories with your coalition, with people you’ve helped, or just experiences that have stayed with you and shaped how you see this work with homelessness, Angela?

Angela: Alesha, please chime in if you want. But, really, knowing the successes is what sustain us; getting to be close to the success. Two weekends ago, we got to partner with someone I consider a friend and a colleague, Kelly Clendenon, to share his documentary of resilience, success, giving back. Kelly is someone who shares, in this documentary, how he struggled with both homelessness and addiction. And, he is now on the other side of that; giving back to his community, helping with a shower program that provides a little ray of hope for folks experiencing homelessness today. That to me is the full circle. When people are given an opportunity, given access to the services, to get their needs met; their instincts are to give back to the community, so that they might be able to help the next person who is suffering in our streets. That full circle gives me so much hope that when you invest in people, you will get the outcomes that you want.

Asher: I love that. What’s the documentary called, if you don’t mind sharing that?

Angela: It’s called, . Yes, Alesha?

Alesha: Yeah, I also wanted to add to that is, after years of struggling with addiction and then, eventually, incarceration, Kelly was connected through an organization called , which got him a place to live and on his feet after he got out of prison. And, that was a program that was directly funded by , which is such a large part of our homelessness budget, as Angela was discussing before. I think just seeing a success story like Kelly, how after overdosing six times, within six months, now he just finished his master’s degree and is launching his own nonprofit to tell stories like his own. It really humanizes those dollars and I think it’s important for us to remember that, especially during budget season when we’re having difficult conversations and reading headlines that look scary.

Asher: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that, Alesha. Appreciate it. Yeah, I would have to check out that documentary. Do you know if it’s being streamed anywhere?��

Alesha: You can see the full version on . His organization is called .

Asher: Okay. Got it. We’ll also put this link in the description below of the podcast itself.��

Angela: Asher, I would also say if people wanna see stories of hope, stories of resilience; has an amazing exhibition up right now, where you can see the first person narratives of people who experiencing homelessness, learn more, take the opportunity to really step into the shoes of our neighbors, who experience homelessness. So, I think that’s a great way for your listeners to deepen their understanding while learning how they might be a bigger part of the solution.

Asher: Definitely. Yeah, thank you so much.��

Key Takeaway and Getting Involved

Asher: What’s one thing you want listeners to take away from this conversation as we end off, Angela. And, once again, we really appreciate all the information you’re providing us, as far as, the houseless situation, the numbers and just the math, and all of it. But, what’s one big takeaway from this conversation you wish our listeners to grab.

Angela: It’s the right question. I’m not asking Portlanders to be patient. I’m asking them to be specific about what they want as an outcome, hold the system accountable to get people housed, and then step back and let those who are the system experts, the social workers, the caseworkers, people with lived experience, let them work on the particulars. That is how we’re going to get the outcomes that we all want. If this keeps being a competition or a argument over “more of this” or “less of that”. We are going to be whipsawed through changing tactics and strategies; money deployed over here, money then redeployed over here. That’s no way to build a resilience system. So, I would ask folks to demand accountability outcomes, and then demand that those who have the skills, the training, the experience to deliver those outcomes, and demand that they’re part of the conversation.

Asher: The final question before we end off things; how can people learn more or get involved with Here Together coalition? Do you have any big events coming up? Like, “Independent Living Resources” recently had, I think, a big event with their community, recently. Is there anything besides the community conversations?

Angela: No, that’s really it. I love big events, but Alesha and I really believe that having smaller conversations with people you know and trust is how people are all going to be able to ask tough questions, get their questions answered, lean into this issue. So, we’ve shifted from large 100 person events to these smaller community conversations to give everyone an opportunity to get their questions answered and their thoughts shared.

Closing Credits

Asher: Well, thank you so much, Angela, and thank you so much, Alesha, from Here Together, Coalition joining me on this podcast. We appreciate you and all that you’re doing for the community, especially with the houseless crisis. And, yeah, we hope to talk to you again maybe one day.��

Angela: Thank you for giving us the opportunity. I really appreciate it. I also know how much work goes into the front end, the back end. So, you’ve spent you’ve been generous and spent an hour with us, and I know you’re gonna have to invest a lot more time to get this to where you want it. So, thank you so much.

Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!. ˿����Ƶ’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at . This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Assessable Education and Disability Resource Department, and the PCC multimedia department. We air new episodes on our home website, our Spotify Channel, , and .

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

Disclaimer

Kylo: You are listening to let’s Talk! Let’s Talk!, is a digital space for students at PCC experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ˿����Ƶ PCC Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and .

Show Intro & Guest Introduction

Asher: Hello, Let’s Talk! listeners! Welcome back to the show! Today’s episode is especially important for our community here in Portland, Oregon. Over the past few years, we’ve seen heightened conversations around immigration enforcement involving federal agents operating in cities like Portland. Sometimes masked, and sometimes not clearly identified, and sometimes leaving community members confused or afraid, especially those of us with disabilities. This topic may induce triggering themes. As always, listeners’ discretion is advised as we delve into this topic. This episode is informational only. It’s not legal advice and laws change and individual situations can vary. Joining me today actually is a special guest from SOAR Immigration Legal Services. Hi! Do you mind introducing yourself and telling me who you are and what you do, to our listeners?

Mercedes: Thanks for having me. My name is Mercedes Riggs and I’m Managing Attorney at , which is a program of Ecumenical Ministries of Oregon.

Asher: Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy day to interview with us.��

What ICE Is and Does

Asher: For those unfamiliar, can you explain what immigration and customs enforcements is and what its authority includes?

Mercedes: Sure. So, ICE is Immigration and Customs Enforcement. It’s a federal agency that enforces immigration laws inside the United States, in Portland and in Oregon. ICE activity is usually around Southwest Portland, near their facilities at McAdam Avenue, and that’s where many detentions happen and where check-ins happen. But, ICE enforcement can be throughout the community as we’re seeing in practice.

ICE vs Local Police

Asher: What legal powers do ICE agents have in comparison to local Police, like the Portland Police Force and other entities like that?

Mercedes: So, they enforce civil immigration law. The Police enforce criminal law. So, they are kind of different bubbles. They might have uniforms that say Police, but they aren’t actually Police. They’re enforcing our civil immigration laws.

Asher: Oh, interesting. And why is it that they don’t wear any kind of badge, or number, in those cases.

Why Identification Matters

Mercedes: That is a good question. I think that they should be wearing badges or numbers for identification, especially. For reasons why regular Police wear badges and numbers, so we can identify them. So, if there’s an action performed by one of ’em, we know who did what and can track that and respond to that accordingly. Especially if there’s cases where they acted inappropriately and we need to be able to identify them. So, I think that- that is something that they’re missing, that we need.

Asher: For sure. Definitely. With that information and with that background, what does your organization do to help with community and inform them about situations like this? What does your organization do?

How SOAR Helps Locally

Mercedes: So, we provide Immigration Legal Services to the community, um, focusing on low income individuals in our community. We help with filing applications with US Citizenship and Immigration Services. We also help people with their immigration removal defense cases with the Portland Immigration Court and with representation at the ICE office. If somebody has an appointment there, then we have staff that will accompany that person to their appointment and help with interacting with ICE on behalf of that client. One thing that we do not do is we don’t represent cases for people that are detained in Tacoma. Just because we don’t have the capacity to help with people that are detained in Tacoma Detention Center. But, we do help with stuff locally.

Asher: So, it’s not statewide. It’s basically Portland?

Mercedes: Portland and Hillsborough. We have an office in Hillsborough as well. So, more local. There’s some aspects of immigration law where we can help with people statewide and remotely. But, for in-person stuff, it’s in the Portland metro area, Hillsborough area.

Asher: Thank you for telling me about that. Yeah, I feel like very important, especially here in Portland where there’s a lot of unrest going on. Under what circumstances can ICE stop, question or detain someone, and do they need a warrant in those cases? Because, they’ve been taken to court, from what I’ve heard. Do they need a warrant and what kind of warrant and whether or not it’s a judicial warrant or administrative warrant. Can you dig deeper into that for us?

Stops Detention and Warrants

Mercedes: So, when they’re out in public, they are allowed to approach people and ask questions. But, if they ask somebody a question, the person doesn’t have to answer. But, to detain somebody, that’s where they need legal authority. So, they need either a warrant signed by a judge– and they definitely need a warrant signed by a judge to enter somebody’s home– and they also have what’s known as an administrative warrant that’s just signed by ICE, that’s not signed by a judge. That administrative warrant allows them to arrest somebody out in public, but it doesn’t allow them to go into somebody’s house. No matter what ICE might say about that, they don’t have legal authority with an administrative warrant to enter into somebody’s house because of the fourth amendment of the Constitution that prevents illegal searches and seizures without a warrant signed by a judge.

Asher: What constitutional right applies to people regardless of immigration status.

Mercedes: Everyone in Oregon, everyone in the United States, whether they’re a citizen or not, has constitutional rights. All of the constitutional rights; that includes the right to remain silent, that includes the right to refuse entry without a judicial warrant, and that includes the right to due process.

Public vs Private Spaces

Asher: Yeah, you did mention that people out in public is different from being in a private area. Can you define those different areas for our listeners? What’s a public spot and what’s a private area and how do those differentiate with each other? As far as, what law enforcement is allowed to do, or what kinds of rights people have in those different kind of areas.

Mercedes: That’s a great question. So, a public space is any space where we generally regard as public, so outside. Generally treated as public too, like if you’re in a shopping mall and not in a private restricted area. Basically any area that is open to anyone, that isn’t firmly demarcated that this is a private area. So, in order to firmly show to ICE and firmly show to anyone that it’s a private area, there needs to be a sign saying this is a private area, restricted access. A private area is basically an area where it’s monitored and where the access to it is only allowed for people with permission into that specific space.

Asher: Interesting. With that, there’s a little bit of gray area, or… Maybe you can correct me on that, as far as gray areas go; are restaurants, cafes, Church buildings, or stuff, are they public areas or are they considered private areas? Because there are some places that say ICE is not allowed in these areas, or other things.

Churches and Gray Areas

Mercedes: So, I’ll go to churches for example. Traditionally churches were treated as protected spaces and they’ve, usually, been regarded as protected spaces. With this administration, they do not have that same regard anymore. So, for a church building, for example, the main area where people are congregating, that can be treated differently than if there’s a room with a sign on it saying “private area, access restricted”. So, that’s where I think they, would have a harder argument to say. “They”, meaning “ICE”, would have a harder argument to say that they have the right to go in there. If there’s a door specifically saying that; “this is a private area, can’t go further”, then ICE would definitely need a judicial warrant to go into that space to get somebody. And, if they violate that, then they should be held accountable for that.

Reporting ICE Misconduct

Asher: How do they get held accountable, in those situations, where they forcefully enter either a private area, or do a unlawful arrest?

Mercedes: Yeah, so there’s a couple different mechanisms to report that kind of misconduct. If you’re seeing them out in public, or behind closed doors, calling the Sanctuary Promise Hotline; which is 1-844-924-STAY, and 1-844-6-AMPARO in Spanish, or “online@sanctuarypromise.orgen.gov“. The Spanish option is “PromesaSantuario.Oregon.gov”. Could also contact the DHS office for civil rights. There’s also the ICE Office for Professional Responsibility. I think calling “PIRC” would be a good, good idea too, and . Also if it happened in Portland City Limits, then contacting , ’cause their office would probably wanna know about that too.

Asher: Thank you so much for providing all that information. I feel like a lot of listeners would find help at least in those different phone numbers to call especially. Do people have to open the door if ICE knocks, especially at their home? Or is it similar situation where if a Police officer knocks on their door, they have the right to ask these questions and not open the door.

When ICE Knocks at Home

Mercedes: They don’t have to open the door. Not unless ICE shows a judicial warrant with that person’s name and address, or somebody that lives there, their name and address. So, what they should say is, “show me your warrant. Slide it under the door.”. Don’t open the door, because then they might try to push their way in. Try to have them either slide it under the door or if there’s a window near the door, then have it hold it up to the window so that people inside can read it. Say that, “if you don’t have a judicial warrant, you’re not allowed to be in here” and “please go away”.

Do Not Sign Documents

Asher: I’ve heard of just different situations of people giving documents for people to sign after, even just like handing them something underneath the door. Can someone refuse to sign documents? And what happens if someone signs something and they don’t understand it?

Mercedes: Yeah, definitely a bad idea to sign something that you don’t understand. So, my advice is to not sign anything without talking to a lawyer first. I can’t reiterate that enough; don’t sign something that you don’t understand. Because signing something could cause you to accidentally waive your rights. People have the right to an attorney and immigration courts don’t provide you one for free, but you still have the right to talk to one. There are resources and attorneys available in the area that are low cost and possibly free depending on if they have funding to provide those Services. But, definitely, definitely, definitely talk to an attorney first before signing anything.

Right to an Attorney

Asher: So, we do have a right to an attorney during immigration proceedings, or even during detainment? Is that right?

Mercedes: Yes, people have the right to an attorney. They don’t have the right to have one provided by the government, like in criminal court. There are organizations that can provide those Services and give people access to those Services. But, again, the government doesn’t provide one. It’s something that people have to seek out themselves to get. If somebody’s detained, they can and they should call an attorney. It would be a really good idea for anybody that is fearing that they might be detained, to talk to an attorney ahead of time to at least know what their rights are and to be prepared for the worst case scenario. So, that if the worst case happens, then they’re ready and they know what to do already and they’re not scrambling.

Disability Rights and ADA

Asher: Yeah, with that; Let’s Talk!, As a part of the Accessibility Education Department and we here at PCC are very big on disability as well, so wanting to tie that all in together. How does disability law intersect with immigration enforcement?

Mercedes: Disabled people have the same rights as, as anywhere else. But, there are local advocates that can help if ICE fails to provide accommodations. Organizations like , and there’s also a lot of private attorneys that can help too.

Asher: Are ICE agents required to provide accommodations under the American With Disabilities Act, or the ADA, basically.

Mercedes: Yes, because they’re federal agency, they must provide reasonable accommodations including interpreters, mobility support, and communication access.

Asher: And, for people with disabilities, should they be carrying documentation of their disability around? I feel like that’s what it comes down to now, especially with so many invisible disabilities too and such.

Mercedes: It can help, especially if that disability isn’t visible. If somebody’s carrying a , I think, would be helpful.

Accommodations by Disability

Asher: I want to go down the list of what kind of protections exist for, each kind of disabilities. First off, just Deaf or hard of hearing individuals. Can you give some like insight to that? Yeah.

Mercedes: Yes, for Deaf or hard of hearing people, they have a right to qualified an interpreter.

Asher: What about people with an intellectual disabilities?

Mercedes: They have the right to clear communication and to support.

Asher: People with mobility impairments, especially those with like wheelchair or unable to move around properly, or can’t necessarily put their hands up whenever they’re instructed to do so.

Mercedes: Yeah, they have the right to accessible transport and to safe handling. If they can’t put their hands up, then they should communicate that and make it clear that they aren’t able to move. To explain that they’re disabled and can’t put their hands up or explain what their physical limitations are. If I think it would be a good idea for them to have a card on them so that the ICE agent in easily accessible so that the ICE agent can see that.

Asher: And what happens, if a person cannot comply quickly due to a disability like you were saying.

Documenting and Recording Safely

Mercedes: For them to continue to try to communicate the reasons why they’re not able to comply with what the ICE officer is asking them to do, and to definitely document the interaction. Whether or not somebody’s with them or they themselves are recording on their phone. If they’re not able to record on their phone, then to document the interaction and like when they get home and write it down, so that it can be reported.

Asher: Yeah. With that, there are many stories and probably also just many videos on the internet of people trying to document and then their phones getting slapped away, or something like that. What should you do in those situations? There are different sides to it. I’m protecting myself so I should shove back, which I feel like that’s a really bad idea too, but what’s the good idea in those situations?

Mercedes: I think in those situations it’s hard because people do have the right to try to protect themselves. Try to document in a way that wouldn’t “offend”– the ICE officer. So, not having a phone right in their face, having it more closer to the recorder, the person reporting, and also just continuing to write down, or document, and make a record in saying, “I’m recording this because I have the right to record the interaction and I’m doing this for my own protection, so that we can be clear about what happened on this day.”.

Panic Sensory Overload Tips

Asher: What should a disabled person do if they’re experiencing sensory overload or panic episode during an encounter like that? Because, it’s scary and a lot of students just been on the lookout everywhere for any sort of sign of different kind of cars or just special vehicles that ICE drives, apparently? What should disabled people do if they’re experiencing that and starting to panic and everything? What can we do?��

Mercedes: One idea would be for them to say, “I need a moment because of my disability.” If they have maybe a support card, having that ready and be clear about the fact that they have a disability and just keep on repeating themselves. “I have a disability. I need a moment.”

Staying Safe in Encounters

Asher: What are some best practices for staying safe during an encounter like that? If we do end up encountering like ICE agents?

Mercedes: I know this is like easier said than done, but try to stay calm. Again, asserting your rights. Just keep on repeating your rights, avoid sudden movements, so try to be as still as you can and move as slowly as you can, keep your hand visible, and have your rights card handy. You might’ve seen the red cards floating around, so having that handy to help remind yourself. But, just generally if you’re going to be moving at all, explaining what you’re doing, and asking for permission. Especially, if you’re gonna put your hands in your pocket to get something. Saying, “I am putting my hands in my pocket to get out my ID.”, Or maybe asking for permission ahead of time before even doing that going, “Hey, I would like to get my ID out for you. Can I get that for you?”, and asking permission ahead of time, so that if you have a jumpy ICE officer. That they know what’s going on and you get permission from them, so everything’s clear and to keep yourself as safe as possible in those interactions.

Where to Get “Know Your Rights” Cards

Asher: You mentioned those rights cards. Where can our listeners find those rights cards to print out or even to give out to people, just in case?

Mercedes: has them in multiple different languages. You can order them off their website and also has cards too, and you can print them out too if you don’t wanna order it. You can just print out what they have. They have versions where you can print it out and you can just fold it up and put it in your wallet.

Asher: Yeah, thanks for giving that resource for us. Definitely will place it at the bottom of our website.��

If Agents Enter Without Warrant

Asher: How should someone respond if agents try to enter without a warrant?

Mercedes: They should say through the door, “I don’t consent to entry”, and they should call the . Call their hotline at (888) 622-1510.

Asher: Can they call immediately? Like during that moment?

Mercedes: Yes, for sure. Yes.

Asher: And, they will probably tell them what to do and such. Right?

Mercedes: Exactly. They can help coach them through the interaction.

Handling Threats and Intimidation

Asher: What if they threaten arrest or deportation, immediately? Those kinds of encounters I feel like are quite a bit, and it’s very scary to just hear that and be like, “oh, shoot! What do I do?”.

Mercedes: Keep on repeating, “I choose to remain silent. I want to speak to a lawyer.”. Threats don’t remove somebody’s rights. So, they can threaten all they want. But, again, it’s easier said than done to try to stay calm. But, keep on repeating that you have rights and you have the right to remain silent. And, again, saying that you want to speak to a lawyer. There’s nothing that bothers me more than when I watch like a movie, or something, and somebody starts talking to law enforcement without their lawyer present. I’m going, “no! No!”

Asher: “Don’t do that!”

Mercedes: “Don’t do it! It’s a trap!”

Asher: “It’s a trap!” Yeah. Listeners, please don’t learn from movies about how to speak to local law enforcement. You have rights, and don’t just speak to them on a whim!��

How to Document Misconduct

Asher: Immediately after the encounter, and I know you talked a little bit about it too; who to call as well as how to file complaints. How do we document misconduct, in situations like that. I don’t even know how to start with that. Where do you write it down, or who do you even tell, and is there a proper procedure to document misconduct in situations like that?

Mercedes: So, somebody should take notes right away while the details are fresh in your memory. Recording all the details that you remember, like that for the officer, their name, if you got one, their badge number, if they happen to wear one. ICE doesn’t wear badges, but maybe they will start one day. I don’t know. If you saw their vehicle documenting what kind of vehicle and if you could see any license plate information, details on what the officer was wearing, like what color uniform they were wearing, if you noticed any special badges on them. Also record down the date, the time, the exact location, describe what happened, if there were any witnesses there, try to record down the names of the witnesses and the contact information for the witnesses, and try to take photos or videos. But, don’t interfere with the officers. Again, the best practices these days, as we’re seeing is, if at all possible, try to take photos or videos. Then to call the PIRC hotline after and to call a trusted person or, if that person has like an attorney, call them.

Rapid Response Support Networks

Asher: What other organizations provide rapid response support? I know you mentioned one during the encounter of who to call, but maybe even after the fact. After we get to a safe location, who can we call? For rapid response and just support or even during that situation as well.

Mercedes: Yeah. So, PIRC is like the number one, I think on the list. But, besides them, there’s a couple organizations that provide rapid response support in Portland. Innovation Law Lab is one. I think the Clear Clinic also o offers rapid response support, or if that person has their own private attorney lined up that they’ve been in contact with before; calling them up, I think, would be a good idea.

Asher: I feel like it’s very important, especially in those situations to have support. Especially those of us with disabilities. Like you were saying, it’s easier said than done in those situations to remain calm, to state your rights, move as slowly as possible, and say everything very clearly. Especially in those encounters and such.

Mercedes: It might be a good idea to practice those interactions, so that somebody could feel more prepared and just practicing things like you might practice other things in your life. Then it might become more of a muscle memory and easier to do when you’re actually in the moment.

Legal Community Monitoring

Asher: How can communities legally observe or monitor enforcement activities? I’ve seen a lot of different kind of observations around like statewide, especially like Portland, Minnesota, and such. People recording and people trying to make a website online that says “this is where ICE agents are. Keep an eye out!”.��

Mercedes: Yeah. People can record from a safe distance. I am not like a super brave person, so I would probably be recording out in a window, far away. I admire the people that are braver and that will be down there on the street. But, I’ll be poking through the blinds on the window, recording. But, there are, Portland area, in Oregon, rapid response volunteers that are trained to observe without interfering. Like the volunteers with PIRC.

More Ways to Report Abuse

Asher: What mechanisms exist to report misconduct? Just going back to the whole idea of reporting an encounter, and such.

Mercedes: is available, , for the Portland area, or Portland City limit, Interactions. Also the ICE office for professional responsibility. I don’t feel like much of us trust ICE right now. I don’t trust ICE.

Asher: Yeah, no.��

Mercedes: I think procedurally it would be a good idea to still report to that agency, maybe one day, in the future for another administration that has the idea to actually hold people responsible in mind. For them to be aware of and to, possibly, do something about. These days, I feel like some trust from them, from ICE, would be earned, by me, if officers wore badges with their identifying information and showed their faces. That’s what makes me particularly distrustful if I can’t identify somebody and can’t see their face. Automatically the suspicions are added. Why are you hiding? What is there to hide? If you’re doing something that you are supposed to be doing, then you shouldn’t be afraid of identifying yourself.

Asher: Definitely showing badge number or showing at least like legal ID and showing your face. Don’t mask up your face. I want to be able to see who you are!��

Mercedes: Exactly! Yeah.��

Protecting Vulnerable Neighbors

Asher: How can people legally protect vulnerable community members in situations like, Low income or people with disabilities and such. What’s legally allowed in protection?��

Mercedes: “Know Your Rights” trainings are great and some organizations have trainings. To train the trainer so that people can spread the word about people’s rights. Another good idea that I think anybody that fears being detained or deported should do is have a safety plan. I think has a safety plan on their website; a packet that you can download and fill out and give a copy to a trusted person, so that they have that information. Because, for anybody, a safety plan is a good idea. We should have a plan for what happens if the worst happens. I have kids, we have a plan for what happens if there’s a disaster. There’s all sorts of things that we should be preparing for in life. In case, the big earthquake hits; we need to be prepared for that. This is no different. People should have a safety plan in case they’re detained so that their affairs can be put in order. Another good idea is disability accommodation cards. Helping people with that and distributing that and making sure that people with disabilities have those in case they need them. Then also connecting with the rapid response networks that I mentioned, like PIRC. Helping people with accessing that. If somebody comes to another person with a legal question helping to connect that person with a qualified immigration attorney. Because there’s a lot of scammers out there.

Asher: There are, yes.

Mercedes: And there’s people, unfortunately, taking advantage of people in this situation and taking advantage of people’s fears. It just makes me so mad, because sometimes these scammers put people in an even worse situation. So, for sure, helping people contact a qualified attorney and you can look up and see if somebody is qualified by looking on the Oregon State Bar website directory. Or, since immigration is federal, immigration lawyers might be licensed to practice in another state. So, maybe trying to Google them and just confirming that they’re licensed at least somewhere.

Finding Trusted Legal Help

Asher: Yeah. Do you have any links for us? As far as, looking for a legal attorney, or at least an immigration attorney and those that can speak different languages.

Mercedes: has some information about connecting to attorneys and people can connect to Equity Corps of Oregon, which has access to panel attorneys that can help out.��

Asher: Would you say that’s like the main website you should go to, to look for an attorney?

Mercedes: Yeah. There’s multiple nonprofits in the area that provide immigration legal services for, either, free or for low cost. Besides going through “ECHO”, there’s organizations like “Mines” or Immigration Legal Services. There’s ““, ““, “”. There’s Catholic Charities. I’m trying to think of anyone else that I’m missing, but those are like some of the main ones here in Portland.

Asher: We’ll definitely add those links as well for our listeners who need help, and just need legal counsel, and just to ask all those important questions in those situations.��

Policy Reforms and Transparency

Asher: Do you know what policy reforms are currently being debated regarding enforcement transparency? And we did mention a few, wearing legal badge, having a name and legal badge number or uncovering the face. Do you know if there’s any other debates being made in regards to enforcement transparency?

Mercedes: I know the Legislative session just wrapped up last week. And the bill for no masks is going to the governor’s desk, I believe soon. No masks for law enforcement. .

If Someone Is Detained

Asher: What should someone do if a family member, friend or other community member that they know is detained and they need to find what facility the individual are being held in? Who can they call? What can they do if, for example, I have a friend that was detained and they were brought to a facility. What can I do to know what is happening?��

Mercedes: You can look on . That detainee locator, I feel like it’s not exactly in real time. It’s a little bit delayed. So, if somebody looks up somebody on the website and they know their friend, or loved one, was detained an hour ago and somebody’s not popping up on the website yet. It’s because of that delay. They can try calling the ICE Field Office, in Southwest Portland, to see and they can confirm if they have somebody. It’s hard sometimes, because of those delays and that causes a lot of anxiety. I know, for people, it’s not easy to track somebody. So, I can see how that would definitely be stressful for people not knowing, having that delay for an hour or two as that information is being added online. But yeah, trying the online locator, calling the office, and also contacting PIRC. PIRC might be able to help and track down where that person is.

Asher: Yeah. Is ICE legally required to record the person’s name that they detain? I don’t know if there’s situations where the name just never shows up and just the person’s lost in the system.

Mercedes: Yeah, they have to gather that information and they’re supposed to be able to provide that information, so people can locate people. They can’t just disappear people.

Asher: Really appreciate you giving all these details and resources for us, Mercedes. Really appreciate it.��

Contacting SOAR and Office Hours

Asher: Last but not least, how can listeners reach out to your organization if they need help or want to know more on how to stay safe and what their legal rights are and everything?

Mercedes: They can call our office at (503) 384-2482. They can also email us at “soarlegal@emoregon.org“. Email, I think, is the best way to get a hold of us since we’re so busy and the phone is ringing off the hook. Sometimes it takes a while to get through to a human on the phone. So, email would be probably the best way to get hold of us to schedule a consultation.

Asher: Awesome. And are we allowed to come visit at your offices, or is it better to email first if you really want to see a physical person.

Mercedes: So, visiting is great. We welcome that. We are open to the public on Monday afternoons from one to four, then Tuesday through Thursday from eight to four, but closed during lunch, and we are closed on Friday.

Asher: Awesome. Thank you so much, Mercedes once again for joining me on this interview and giving all this insight, especially on the legalities of ICE, what to do to stay safe, and also know our rights. Appreciate you.

Mercedes: You’re welcome, Asher. It’s been a pleasure.

Asher: Thank you.

Mercedes: Thank you.

“The New Colossus” Poem Reading

Asher: You’re listening to Let’s Talk!. That was Mercedes from Soar Legal Immigration Services. Joining me on an interview on disability and immigrant rights. Coming up is a short poem called . It’s a sonnet by Emma Lazarus, written in 1883, to raise funds for the statue of Liberty’s pedestal, famously welcoming immigrants with the lines; “Give me your tired. You’re poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.”. The poem contrasts the statue with the ancient colossus of roads, presenting it as a mother of exiles, holding a beacon of hope and its words were inscribed on a plaque inside the pedestal, in 1903, becoming a powerful symbol of America’s promise to immigrants. This poem is spoken by Ash DeHart.

Ash DeHart: “Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, with conquering limbs, a stride from land to land; Here at our sea washed, sunset gate shall stand a mighty woman with a torch, who’s flame is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon hand glows worldwide welcome; her mild eyes command the airbridge harbor that twin cities frame. “Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she with silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teaming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

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Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!. ˿����Ƶ’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk Podcast collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resource Department, and the PCC multimedia department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify Channel, , and .

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective

Episode Disclaimers

Kylo: You are listening to Let’s Talk! Let’s Talk! is a digital space for students at PCC experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ˿����Ƶ, PCC Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on , and .

Episode Introduction

Miri: On Friday, February 20th, 2026, amid record high tensions between themselves and ˿����Ƶ’s administration, the unions representing the classified and faculty employees at the school voted overwhelmingly to approve a strike. A couple of days ago, I got to talk to two members of PCCFFAP, the union that represents ˿����Ƶ’s faculty and academic professionals. I asked them to share their insights on the background of the strike, what the workers are asking for, and how a potential strike could impact students if the college continues refusing to truly show up to bargaining. Thank you so much for meeting with me today and being willing to talk about this. I’d like to start by asking you both to introduce yourself with your names, pronouns, background, and how did you end up at PCC?��

Meet the Guests

Ben: Yeah. Thanks so much, Miri. My name is Ben Cushing. I’m the president of the PCC Federation of Faculty and Academic Professionals, he/him, and I am a faculty member who teaches sociology at Cascade Campus. I’ve been at PCC since 2008. I started as a part-time faculty member right outta graduate school, and I worked as a part-time faculty member for five or six years, and then started as a full-time faculty in 2013. And I’ve been in the president role for about two years.

Jacob: Hi everybody. I’m Jacob Richman, he/him. I’m a part-time faculty member in Multimedia, and am the lead steward for the CTE programs at the faculty union, FFAP. CTE programs are the career training educational programs. They include everything from my program, Multimedia, , through nursing, welding, trades, sciences. It’s an incredibly broad area. So, I’ve been in PCC, I think, this is my third or fourth year? Yeah. Have a background in audio and video multimedia production, and art, and performance, and community art. And, I’m really glad being here. Thanks for the invite.��

An Outline of PCC’s Unions

Miri: So, what is PCCFFAP’s role, and how did you each get involved in that?��

Jacob: It’s the union that includes all faculty and APs, academic professionals. So, counselors, a lot of administrative staff that are student facing or that deal with student services or work with them. I got involved, I was heavily involved in the, um, part-time faculty union at Portland State before moving from there to here. And, before that was pretty active in unions a little bit before that. So, as soon as I got here, I was like; I knew already about the union. It’s a very strong one. A unique thing about – it’s what’s called a big tent union. So, it includes part-time faculty, full-time faculty, administrative professionals and that’s really exciting and there’s a lot of power in that. So, I was excited to take part and ran for this steward position, and here I am.��

Miri: Awesome! Thank you, and what about yourself?��

Ben: Yeah, so… Um, I– I came to the labor movement really from the social movement world. So, you know, I’ve been engaged in various kinds of, of social movement work all the way back to, you know, when I was a 18, 19-year-old. And, I began to be really- and of course I’ve been a– a rank and file member of the union here at PCCFFAP, um, since 2008 when I started working here. But, I wasn’t really participating in any union leadership, or I wasn’t very active for a long time. And, I started to see how unions were, in— in the last five years or so, becoming an increasingly important sort of force for good in the world. For one, like getting much more active, I was really inspired by the Starbucks workers who were organizing, by workers at Amazon, fulfillment centers that we’re organizing, and– and also just seeing a shift in the labor movement where people were sort of remembering, I think, that the labor movement is a social movement. Seeking not only, you know, better wages and working conditions in our workplaces, but also to shift the balance of power in society toward working people. And, I also, I think I began to understand that to address a lot of the other things that I care about, you know, the climate crisis, economic inequality more broadly, and lots of other things, maybe everybody having healthcare. Um, that those kinds of things can only be meaningfully accomplished if there’s a strong, well organized, participatory, and democratic labor movement. And, so, me and some of my colleagues formed, uh, Reform Caucus within our union and began to push our organization to just be more bold and to be more inclusive and democratic. And, so, that’s kind of what led me here.��

Miri: Yeah, that’s super interesting. The way that you’re framing that as everything being inextricably linked to each other for that, for anything else to progress is interesting, I think. And, for a long time the opinion on– on unions has been poor and on the climate has been poor, and healthcare has been poor. And, trying to get each of those things moving independently has not really led to a lot actually happening.

Ben: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think one of the things that social movements can do— and the labor movement is– is part of this— is to shift the political terrain, you know? So, one of the things I think that we need to accomplish here in terms of higher education is to shift the political terrain in Oregon such that higher education is broadly understood as a public good. Something that’s good for all people, and that as such, everybody should have access to it. It should be free or cheap, and should be open access and– and serving our communities. Instead, what we’ve seen over the years is kind of the shift in the opposite direction. In some respects, we had a version of that, like an imperfect version of that, maybe a generation or two back. And, over the past 40 to 50 years, there’s been a systematic gutting of public institutions and their funding. That basically boils down to tax cuts for the rich and, uh, decreasing funding for public institutions. Whether that be, you know, the social safety net or… Um, K-12 Education or Higher Ed. And one of the consequences for students is that tuition has just skyrocketed during that time. You know, when– when my parents went to college, um, you could go to a, uh, university in California and pay very, very little in tuition. So, you could basically work a summer job and pay for your tuition throughout the year. At a– at a– at a tier one University in– in the California University system. Right? Uh, that is not what students face today. And that’s a result of the shifting of power in society toward the wealthy who have been able to, um, basically gut public institutions and, uh, decrease their own taxes. And, so there’s this growing inequality within society between, between the rich and– and– and the working class. And, so really I think that our– our organization is on the one hand fighting to improve the working conditions and the wages of our coworkers. But, it’s also pushing back against an entire model of education, of higher education, which is bad for students. ‘Cause, tuition goes up and it’s bad for the workers within those institutions as more and more faculty are working as, um, adjunct faculty as part-time, precarious workers. Basically gig workers; and we’ve seen, you know, job security and wages and benefits decreasing over time. And, so we need to push back against that whole system. And, I think that– that workers in that system and the students within that system share a lot of common interests to push back against it. And, would be wise to su— you know, support one another. Like we really want to be in solidarity with students as they’re fighting for lower tuition, and the various causes that I know a lot of student organizations are pushing toward.��

Miri: Yeah.��

What They’re Fighting For

Ben: We have a platform, a bargaining platform. Um, and a series of proposals. Our– if you go to our website, , and click on , there’s a huge amount of information, um, including all the proposals that have been passed if you really wanna dive in deep. But, also some more zoomed out Q and A type information, both for our members and for students. So, there’s a lot of– lot of really good info there.��

Miri: Awesome. Thank you.��

Ben: So, the… At this point, the key things we’re fighting over. There’re actually many. But, they boil down to wages and benefits. So, we are in the middle of our full contract. Two years ago we settled on a four year contract, Um… But, we only bargained for wages and benefits for the first two years. And, then we agreed to reopen the parts of the contract that deal with wages and benefits to renegotiate them after two years, to basically come up with the wages and benefits for the second two years of the contract. So, that’s what we’re in right now is called an economic reopener. And, currently the college’s offer in terms of a cost of living adjustment is 0.35%. Which, a cost of living adjustment is intended to help wages keep up with inflation so that workers over time don’t lose ground. Um… So, inflation in the Western States, uh, in the last year was a little under 3,% and it was about 3% the year before. So, a COLA that keeps up with inflation would be about 3%, COLA being Cost Of Living Adjustment. The college’s current offer is 0.35%. So, that’s, um, basically zero. Uh, it’s 30, uh, 35 cents for every $100 you make.��

Miri: That– that was… I– I, you know, doing the research for this and then also for an episode, I did a couple weeks ago with, um, students from the Music Sonic Arts movement, that is an absolutely bizarre number. Like it– is there a way that they came up with that number? ‘Cause that seems like that– it seems like an accounting error that seems like they put the period in the wrong place.��

Ben: I was talking to a friend last night and I told them about the– the college’s COLA offer and he said, “You know, it’d be better if they just offered zero,” you know?��

Miri: Yeah.��

Ben: 0.35 feels like it’s an insult. Um, yeah. And…��

Miri: Like, because 3.5 seems like what you would be asking for.��

Ben: Yeah.��

Miri: And then zero seems like what they would be wanting to, what any administration would be wanting to offer.��

Ben: Yeah.��

Miri: So, then having that weird, almost non arbitrary number of like, “You know, it’ll be, it’ll be 10% of what you’re actually asking for.” Just — is — why??��

Ben: Yeah. Their– their original offer was 0.25, and then a few months ago they raised it to 0.35. An additional 10 cents for every hundred dollars. So, you know. I mean, I think the college claims that they’re facing really difficult budget times. Um, they’re… we– we don’t want to deny that there’s– there’s some truth in that, you know. Like the budget’s not great. The budget is not in a crisis, you know? Um, but it is — it isn’t great. They’re setting aside a lot of additional money into their, um, reserves that they don’t need to do, but they’re choosing to do. Um, and that takes millions of dollars off the table that could be used to have our wages keep up with inflation. The college is choosing to spend money in ways that are– that– that don’t serve students, I would argue. We– we’ve seen the– the– um, the– the amount of managers at PCC increase by 29% since 2018. So, that’s not a very long period of time. And we’ve seen almost– almost a one third growth in the number of managers. Actually, what’s measured by FTE, so full-time equivalent. Um, so, we just think the college has its priorities out of place.

Miri: Let’s see. I’m trying to pull the, uh, president’s open letter up again as well, where some arguments had been made about those were going along with state regulations and what other colleges are doing; while not addressing the decreasing amount of full-time faculty and part-time faculty. What is in your, uh, negotiations to address that part?��

Ben: So, first of all, I think we should compare the college’s current offer to previous contract settlements over the past decade or so, to get a sense of like how different is what they’re offering now from what they’ve offered in the past. But, the short story is that over the past decade, you know, with inflation; the college’s like overall cost of our contract agreement, meaning the cost for everything from health insurance to wages to all the other things that are included in our contract settlements, have increased from about 17 million, at the lowest, about 10 years ago, to about 36. I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but I think it’s about 36 million. So, there’s been a kind of a slow increase and then there was a dip around COVID when the contract settlement went, the total cost of the contract settlement was again about the high teens, right? Um, the college’s current offer with us right now, and we are not in a global pandemic is 3.7%. I’m actually gonna take a second and pull up this document so I can give you concrete numbers. So… Okay! So, over the past 10 years or so, we can compare the total cost of the economic packages that PCC and PCCFFAP, our union and the college have agreed on. So, in 2015, the college agreed to a $21 million package. In 2017, it was of 24 million. In 2019, is 27 million. So, you can see that’s kind of the trend. There’s a slight, uh, growth with inflation, but then it dipped in 2021 ’cause of the pandemic. And, so that brought us down to $17 million. Um, but then we kind of caught up, we had what we called a catch up COLA last time where there had been so much inflation since the pandemic and we hadn’t actually had any cost of living adjustments significantly during that time. So, we got a bigger than normal COLA that we negotiated for in our last contract that didn’t quite catch us up to inflation, but almost did. So, in that– that total cost of that package that we agreed upon two years ago was $38 million. Um, the college’s current offer is $3.7 million. So, from a $38 million package to a $3.7 million package. So the college’s offer is just right now a total outlier in terms of the history of contract negotiations at PCC. So, the college I think would say, that the reason that it’s so low is that we are in unprecedented economic times, you know? That the– the funding is really bad for the college. That– that there’s even a chance that the, um, the Big Beautiful Bill passed in Washington DC will trickle down in to Oregon’s budget, and cause decreases in funding. We actually don’t know if that will happen yet. The Oregon legislature’s working on currently. So, we’ll find out about that in the next week. Hopefully that doesn’t happen. But, if it were true that we were in such dire economic times that any public institution’s just starved for resources, then we would see other unions at other public institutions in the Portland metro area settling on really low cost of living adjustments, right?��

Miri: That’s not happening?

Ben: And, it’s not happening. , and they’ve all settled for COLAs between 3% and 5%. So Beaverton teachers settled for 4.75% in the first year, 5% in the second year. Salem Kaiser, 4% and 3.5%. Lake Oswego, 3.6, 3.2. So, I could go down this list. I don’t need to bore your listeners with the numbers. But, the point is that all of the numbers are between 3% and 5%. In fact, I’m in conversation with some of the workers at, um, Central Oregon Community College, the classified workers there. They’re also in bargaining right now, and they were just offered 4% by their management team. They didn’t accept it, but they were offered 4%. Um, Lane Community College classified workers were just– they just settled a contract with 3%. By contrast, PCC’s current offer is 0.35%. So, we just want to pose the question like, if PCC’s peer institutions, in the same economic climate with the same funding sources, can afford a cost of living adjustment for their workers that allows them to keep up with inflation or exceed it, why can’t PCC?��

How a Strike Would Effect PCC

Miri: Yeah, it’s a good question. That would be great if, uh, somebody answered. How would a strike affect students and employees at PCC? What are the– the things that they can expect? Starting with students; what are the things that they can expect in the next month? You know, while strike things are potentially getting set, versus afterwards when a strike is happening, like what resources will they not have access to? What, uh, will happen to grades and classes and trying to sign up for next term?

Ben: This is an excellent question. So, I’ll start with just some basic information. Um, so if we strike, we’ll probably strike on the Wednesday of Week 10, which is March 11th. From that point on. Classes will be canceled and probably the college will be closed. Buildings will probably be closed. We don’t know that for sure. We don’t control whether or not that happens. But, um, if we go on strike, it’s very– very likely that our union, FFAP, the Federation of Faculty and Academic Professionals, will strike at the same time as the classified union, the Federation of Classified Employees. And, that union represents custodial workers, bus drivers, food service workers, administrative assistants, and a whole bunch of other workers. So, what that means is that the vast majority of people employed by PCC will all be on strike. Probably, 15, 16, 1700 workers, on strike at the same time. So, that means the college will be closed, classes will be canceled. If you have a class that isn’t on campus that’s just on D2L, that class will be canceled too. Different teachers are navigating this complicated thing in different ways, and we’re all trying to find ways to– to make this, you know, negatively impact students as little as possible. We understand that this is a major, at best, an inconvenience and at worst, like, it really sucks and is problematic for students, um. We don’t enter into that decision lightly. It’s much like, you know, I think about nurses sometimes who have to go on strike. We’ve had long nursing strikes in the Pacific Northwest recently and nurses don’t go on strike lightly either, ’cause they know that their strike might affect patients. But, we also know, I think nurses understand that to build a better healthcare system, like a healthcare system for example that has a– a better nurse to patient ratio, um, so patients get a better experience, sometimes we have to take, like, short-term sacrifices to push for long-term improvements. And, we hope that our strike at PCC, if we end up going on strike, will be like that. It’ll be a short term sacrifice for all of us, for workers and for students. Um, but we hope that it’ll help get PCC on the– on the right course.��

Miri: Yeah, absolutely.��

Ben: So, in terms of, like concrete impacts that it could have for students, if a strike is only a few days long, that will probably mean you miss a class or two, sort of like if the college was canceled for a weather outage, right? If the strike lasts longer than that, we start to get into finals week, and that disrupts final exams and potentially even disrupts the submission of grades. So, it’s possible that grades could be submitted late after the end of a strike. And, of course, that’s disruptive to students. We think that major negative consequences for students won’t happen until we got into, like, into the first part of April, um, where it starts to affect things like academic standing and financial aid and things like that. So, we… Expect, we hope that the administration, like us, will also be doing everything they can to make this as– as least problematic as possible for students. Um. We know that some of the services that PCC provides to students will also be disrupted. We– we intend to have, for example, free food to give away at picket lines to students and to our coworkers, and we’re currently trying to just communicate out as well as we can and build relationships of solidarity with students. This conversation is part of that. There’s gonna be a, um, a student facing town hall today at Cascade Campus, um, and another one later in the week. I think at Sylvania. So, we’re trying to do everything we can to reach out to students. PCCFFAP, our union employs two student organizing interns, which are PCC students who are developing organizing skills and, um, and are paid employees of our union to do that work. Um, trying to help establish, you know, relationships of solidarity with– with students. We’re really proud to have the support of ASPCC who signed onto our solidarity pledge, and tons of individual students who have also signed onto that pledge. But, we understand that this– that if we strike it will be disruptive. To all of our lives, including student lives, and we don’t take that lightly.��

Miri: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you very much for coming and taking time outta your morning to talk to me today.

Ben: Yeah. Thanks Miri. I’m sorry that I have to move on. Yeah, no worries to– to get to class. Um, but I– but– but you’re in good hands with Jacob. Jacob, thanks. Um, your patience while I talked a lot and, um, and, uh, good luck with the second half of the interview.��

Jacob: Of course. Thanks, Ben. See you soon!��

Miri: Yeah. And, I wish you the best of luck on your, uh, negotiations.

Ben: Thanks so much, Miri. Appreciate that!��

What Admin is Saying

Miri: So, one thing that Ben had mentioned was, one of the things that the union is trying to work toward is getting things more universally accessible for students of all needs. You know, not necessarily within just what the union is bargaining for, but it being part of a cultural shift, a societal shift in Oregon to get things free and cheap, secondary education, free and cheap for people who, who want it, who need it. So, based on that, what do you think of having funding and course decisions and stuff be so based off of graduation rates?��

Jacob: The Music and Sonic Arts, Save Music and Sonic Arts campaign, administration will really cherry pick and sometimes even fabricate its data for graduation rates. Since people, especially community college might take more time, they might be able to take, you know, one course a term, they might be able to take three courses a different term. They might have to take a term off depending on– on life situation. So I think it’s a poor metric, certainly a poor soul metric. I think we want our, you know. I absolutely want my students to finish the program, get great skills, and be able to succeed in creative careers. I teach in a creative program and I want to gear towards them, towards the lives of, you know, supporting themselves through their creative work. That’s the most exciting thing in the world. So… And, what that looks like isn’t necessarily just the graduation rate for one year or another. Those things are important. Um, and we all need to be paying attention to them as, uh, as faculty and administration as well. Um, but, yeah, not solely.��

Miri: Yeah, I think the graduation rate obsession comes from looking at it from the perspective of public primary schools, where you are enrolled just default all the way from first through 12th grade. Uh, and that’s your options. Like there is a dropping out, and there is a completing, and that’s it. Or, for more traditional four year university type things, where you go, you sign up for this program, you go there, you take these classes, and then you graduate or you drop out. Versus what a community college is useful for; where you can go and take a couple of classes, when you can afford it, and then take a term two, three off, and then take a couple more classes when you can afford it. And, I think having that– having that affect graduation rate measurements, in the same way that that would in a four year university, is inaccurate, at least.��

Jacob: I agree a hundred percent. I– I think the impetus is to– to encourage students, to support them in all those decisions. ‘Cause you know at– at a large expense four year university. You’re also like buying into that many years of– of loans or debt or whatever that– that locks you in there. So, there’s that added pressure as well, and you can’t leave or else you lose all that. And, so I think here at– at ˿����Ƶ, we need to… We– we want our students to continue through the program, continue to build on those skills on top of each other. Um, but the pacing needs to be a little bit more realistic to people who have families, who have– or everybody’s working, uh, you know, all these sorts of things that they have to take care of as well. And, I think we need to be, uh, uh, flexible about that. Administration’s job. I think, um, right now where– where they see it is like they’re, they’re just sharpening knives. It feels like— and this is not just at ˿����Ƶ or this particular administration, though this one is just a little bit more brazen. But, it’s the– the corporatization of higher education. Uh, really almost like the venture capital approach. What can we slice away for parts in this bloated corpse from a previous era that’s higher education in America? And, so you have these consultant class people who come in, who run administrations, who run boards, and they– they all– they wanna see is cost cutting. Except for in their own sense. Like Ben, uh, Ben mentioned the, you know, the 20 plus percent growth in– in administration in this college with a, you know, subsequent shrink of actually student facing. I like to call student facing versus administration. Um, uh, a very lopsided, so they don’t wanna cut themselves. Um, they just wanna squeeze everything else. They wanna cut programs, doesn’t matter what reasons. Um, that’s something I’ve come to learn over, uh, bargaining with this administration is that the reasons aren’t important. They just want to cut and pick apart. And so whether its graduation rates, whether it’s income to the college from a program, whether it’s hireability, all of these things, when you pick apart the reasoning for any of their processing, and when it’s starts to fall apart, they’ll just hop to another. And then when you get ’em in a corner, they’re just like, “we’re doing this ’cause we can.”. So, that’s– that’s sort of where I’m at here. So, I– yeah. This is a long-winded way of answering your question. I don’t think that graduation rates should be the sole metric of the success of a program.��

Miri: Yeah. Well, in– in all my talks with, uh, student organizers, the thing that they’re fundamentally most frustrated with from the administration is a lack of transparency and honesty. Um, you know, they– they go to the town halls, they ask the questions, they send the emails, and then are either stonewalled and, uh, lied to their face and told that they are not receiving the communications, the administration is not receiving the communications that the students are giving, or when they ask a question, when the student’s asking a question that the administration responds to, it is fabrications or a smokescreen. For example, in the Music and Sonic Arts having a low graduation rate being one of the reasons for that program to be shut down when that program has a 40% higher graduation rate than the college average.��

Jacob: Yep, that’s right.��

Miri: Um, so what kind of things are staff facing in that same kind of vein, of things that you’re asking about and then just being obfuscated from you when they answer.

Jacob: Sure. No, I appreciate that question. And, and it breaks my heart that that’s the, um, that the experience of students with this administration as well. And, as a quick background, so I’m– I’m a faculty member in Multimedia program. Music and Sonic Arts I would consider sort of our sister program. And, um, I have a lot, you know, you were one of them. Uh, I have a lot of Music Sonic Arts students in my classes. Um, and so I’ve been involved in the Save Music and Sonic Arts campaign for almost a year now. Starting with a kind of legit by-the-book, what’s called, Impact Bargaining. When, if something– something administration makes some change that affects the workers, even if it’s in between contract years, we get to bargain it as an individual item. So, that we– we did that all through last summer, went absolutely nowhere. Administration just ran their wheels. And, they did exactly what you mentioned. They lied about the reasoning, multiple times. So, they would say, it costs money. Can you tell us how much money? Or it’ll save us money to cancel this program. Can you tell us how much money it saved? No. Literally they said that, um, it doesn’t prepare our students for work in the industry. We had dozens of industry leaders come and, and provide evidence. Otherwise they said, okay, well we don’t care. Um, and then it is graduation rates. Graduation rates for our Music Sonic Arts is higher than the average. I, it’s– it just doesn’t make sense. It’s like they don’t, not even caring to properly lie about the reasoning for things. And it’s– it’s really heartbreaking, and to be honest, really scary at this moment we are at right now.��

Miri: Yeah.��

Jacob: ‘Cause it means like, well, what are they gonna do next if they don’t care to tell the truth to us or to students? And then to answer, sorry for the roundabout, but to answer your question, how does it affect faculty like us: This kind of process, what this administration’s doing? It’s not unique. It was the same way when I was at Portland State. Administrations in this kind of venture capital, picking over the corpse way. They’ll squirrel away money into these savings accounts, claim they need to do it for a rainy day, and then shrink the budget to a doom budget and then cut, cut, cut. That’s what they’re doing here. Ben alluded to it. They’re, they’re artificially deflating the budget and then squeezing all the programs. It’s Music and Sonic Arts, and there were– there were other programs that were cut. Russian language program. Uh, gerontology, in this era where like, that’s such like, like we’re getting, we’re aging as a country. Like we’re not gonna need people knowing, gerontology? It– it’s just madness. So they cut these programs arbitrarily, it seems like, and then squeeze the rest. And for folks that feel like, whether they’re in your faculty and listening or students, you think your program’s safe, you’re not, I lost a class, so how it effects staff, I lost a class that I was a full class, that I was slated to teach this term because of this part-time faculty budget, uh, squeezing they’re doing across the board. Um, and that’s money outta my pocket. And I, I think it’s important for students to know, um, it’s a real hard fact is, you know, when I was in college, if you got to be a college professor, it seems sweet. You know, like you get to do the thing you’re interested in and you—��

Miri: You’d made it.

Jacob: You made it. Yes.��

Miri: It was the end goal.��

Jacob: You’d get to put on your tweed. Yep. Exactly. You put, you get your higher degrees. You, you, you take on debt, you like, you know, burn through your twenties and maybe your thirties living like a grad student. And then you can get a professor job and you’re okay. You getting put on your tweed coat with the patches and, and like, and, and it’s chill. But, but that, that is a relic of, um, of the, of the, uh, 1900s, let’s just say. Um, the reality for the vast majority of faculty like myself is that we are, like Ben alluded to, basically academic gig workers. Folks will teach individual classes. They’re called adjuncts, and I’m an adjunct. It’s a sucks to be in the situation, but I’m a proud adjunct and I’m an organizing adjunct. But the way that it works is that we take classes, at a time. We have shorter contracts. We oftentimes don’t have access to benefits in healthcare. That’s different here for reasons I’ll get to in a while. The “too-long-didn’t-read” version of it is that because we have good organizing and, and organized for good contracts.

Miri: Because of people like you and Ben.��

Jacob: Well, yes, and the people really before us. I don’t wanna take too much, you know, of, of that, but it’s, it’s really important. So 70% of the faculty that teach at PCC are part-time adjuncts like me. I know my colleagues, some of the best teachers I know, uh, I’ve ever met, and I’ve been teaching for almost 15 years now at college and university level. Some of the best teachers I know at this institution are on food stamps. Many of us have to hop around between three, four institutions to make ends meet. Um, people drive Uber. It’s like you wouldn’t. You wouldn’t ima— college teachers in this country, and it’s not just PCC, but PCC is like right in the middle of the 70%, uh, adjunct faculty teaching classes. Um. The vast majority of folks that teach college and university courses are really on the edge, so things like this small insulting COLA in an era of high inflation is, like, existential for the vast majority of American and PCC teachers. So to have your meager paychecks that were already getting paid be worth less an actual value, um, is not just an insult it’s like an existential threat for our ability to make ends meet.��

Miri: And especially with, and these, with what you just just said about having, having one of your classes just, Nope! Taken away from you.��

Jacob: Yeah.��

Miri: You know, so something that you have no control over.��

Jacob: It was filled. My classes are— are, you know, are filled and have almost filled wait list, so like it’s, it’s it, yeah. It– it’s really —, it’s really frustrating and scary.��

Miri: Yeah, so then combining just nabbing classes with 0.35%, which again, that just seems like someone put the period in the wrong place on accident, like they were reaching for the zero and they hit period instead.

Jacob: Yeah, it would be awesome if they listen to that—that logic. But, um, they— they won’t. And that’s what we’re up against. The majority of the teachers at ˿����Ƶ are really— it’s an existential threat for us to take such a low COLA right now. It affects our day-to-day, our ability to make ends meet. And so I want everybody to realize that. It is a really part of it being a big tent union where we have full-time faculty and academic professionals, so advisors and stuff, and this massive group of part-time faculty is that there’s— there are people on very different levels of security in our— what’s called “bargaining” that our union represents.��

Miri: Yeah.��

Jacob: The majority of us are really on the edge like this. And these— these, you know, non-existent COLAs really affect not only our, you know, ability to teach and do our work and keep up with students, but if we’re running between two, three, sometimes four schools to teach or, you know, taking on other part-time gigs during the teaching year, we don’t have that time to— to focus. We’re exhausted, we’re worried, and we’re not gonna be the best we can be in our classroom for our students. And that’s outrageous to me. Especially when you have a president who gave herself a 2.5% COLA, you know, and almost an or almost a power of 10 or whatever more than she’s offering us. Plus all the benefits. She gets a $25k retention bonus every year, all these sorts of things, it sounds like madness ’cause it is. Um, and that’s what we’re up against and that’s— that’s what’s pushed us to this— to this point.��

Miri: So how, um, h—how can a strike be avoided? What are the things that need to happen from the administration in order for things to progress in the way that everyone wants them to?��

Jacob: So they— the short of it is that they can come to us with a real contract or with a real possibility, a real COLA, something that we can pass. Cause we have to — we’re a democratic institution, so our members have to agree to any, um, any deal that we make out, even outside of the strikes. Uh, the members voted to strike, and the members have to vote on a contract if it comes through. Um, so they gotta do that and they gotta do that now. It’s really frustrating and I think a little, I’d say concerning that they haven’t, as, as of this point, done that this week. So this weekend, last week, we had our Strike Authorization Vote for our union, FFAP and FCE, our sister union, we’re really tied together. And we’re— we’re lockstep in terms of timing for how these things will happen to inflict the most pain on administration and get this over with quickly if it’s needed. Um, we both voted 94% to authorize the strike. And we had between, 86% for us and over 90% turnout for FCE. So high turnout. This is, you know: Our members, uh, of your teachers, everybody that works at the college, IT, janitors, everybody. They think this is ridiculous. And they— they want it to stop and they’re willing to withhold their labor. How do we avoid that? Is that they realize that and come up with a better offer. In lieu of that, we keep putting pressure on them, which is what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna show up to every little— every little fringe, um, you know, back-patting thing that they have we’re gonna continue to do. Practice pickets and prepare for it as well as we can, um, within each other, as faculty and— and workers as well.��

Miri: Yeah, there was a demonstration at Cascade two Thursdays ago from when this is being recorded, um, which also coincided with the student walkout that had been going on. And I talked to the organizer of the student walkout and she said that she had been working closely with union, um, representatives to time things together and work together to keep pressure on the school to actually respond to student needs and, um, and— and staff needs, faculty needs. How— how did that go? What, is that something that’s going to be happening more and more before a strike happens?��

Jacob: Oh boy. I hope so. And I know you’re talking about Alena Slee. She’s a force of nature. Um, I do want to be clear though, that the student walkout was an entirely student organized, and run walkout. The walkout was to, um— to save Music and Sonic Arts. The communication we had together was, oh, we have, um— we as faculty and, um, the— the CTE folks as well, the classified staff wanted to do a rally that same day. We’ll just do it a little bit earlier than the students were planning their walkout. So both, yes. Yeah. Sorry. We could support— we could support them. They could support— No, don’t— don’t—don’t apologize. I— I, um, and then the way that student organizers have been working with, um, faculty organizers in the Save Music Sonic Arts campaign has been really closely, and that’s been really amazing. For, as a faculty member to work with students— again, it’s not my program, not the one I teach in, so but— but to have the students, uh, show up to us, show up to the same meetings, ’cause you know, to take, really take stock in the, program and want to take solace in it, take solidarity with the other students and with faculty, has been really, really, really powerful. The, um— the whole strike thing for us and for classified staff. And then the Save Music and Sonic Arts campaign, they’re separate, right? Um, you know, one’s entire college wide, one’s about a specific program, but they— they reflect, both similar frustrations with leadership and administration and failures of that leadership and administration, but also similar hopes and dreams for something better.��

Miri: Yeah.��

Jacob: I think two things is like two star, like a binary star system that are kind like—��

Miri: Yeah, absolutely.��

Jacob: They’re rotating, like they’re— they’re— they’re drawn to each other and they feed off of each other in a— in a good way.��

Miri: And they both come from a place of love for PCC, and what it does, and what it means to everyone who’s a part of it.��

Jacob: Absolutely. I’ve taught at at least half a dozen colleges and universities. Some, you know, really expensive private schools, state schools, and PCC is my favorite place. I wanna stay here. I want to, you know, work the rest of my career here, which is part of why I feel the pressure to do this organizing and to stand up for it.��

Miri: That’s something I hear a lot from a lot of people, like both from students who, even for myself at least, I was at a very expensive private school studying audio engineering and all that stuff. And then I wasn’t getting what I wanted from it, and then came back to PCC only because it had exactly the program that I had been looking for, which was the Music Sonic Arts program. Woohoo!

Jacob: That’s so fantastic.��

Miri: And I know a ton of other people that I’ve talked to, both— both in a professional capacity, like this in interviews, and just, classmates, coworkers, people at CoffeeHouse 5 across the street who also came back to PCC, because it has just a supportive environment where a lot of universities are losing that more and more rapidly.��

Jacob: Absolutely.��

Miri: Especially at Cascade, where, you know, we have a lot of creative-based programs here. Like we have art and we have film and multimedia. All that stuff is here and that just lends itself to being part of an external community.��

Jacob: Um, and I—I feel it too. It’s, it’s a really great energy at Cascade and, and it’s— and if anything, I, you know, when I first started it was, um, I mean, pandemic’s still ongoing, but it was sort of toward the tail end of the— of the worst of it.��

Miri: Yeah.��

Jacob: And— and to see the campus really come alive and then build through the— the— the student organizing towards saving the music tonic arts program, it’s— it’s— it’s such a great place to be.��

Miri: So, if the strike goes through, how do we support the people affected by it? How do we support students? And then how do we support the faculty and staff?��

Jacob: Sure. So, um, the way that it’ll look. So I guess like the way that I’m doing it for my— my courses, is I’ve been talking with my students about it for, you know, at least a month that this strike looks like it’s coming. Here’s what’s gonna happen. Um, so if, if this, our strike date is, uh— is tentatively planned for March 11th. We were really strategic about that day. Um, it helps out a lot of the workers in certain ways, but also it applies a lot of pressure on administration. And it’s. easier in some ways on students, I believe, than if it started in the beginning of the next term, where it would hit right around registration deadlines, and financial aid would be difficult, and all those sorts of things might get tied up. So what I— what I did with my courses, it is like— okay, I usually have kind of like three units. I’m kind of shortening the last unit. They’re based around creative projects, and I’m shortening that last one to a series of exercises and just kind of cutting things off a little bit so I will be done by before the strike hits. I’m advertising this also as like a— as a possible model. I’m not sure like it’s necessarily worthy of that, but like it’s something for other faculty to think about. And then I’m going to crank, crank, crank right before, like, uh— pull an all nighter before, if the strike goes through, on grading and get the students an email that has like what their final grade will be when the strike is over as like as close as I can estimate it as possible with what the— with the material I have.��

Miri: Just to alleviate some of their stress and worries?

Jacob: Yeah. It’s not like, yeah. So they’re not like, “Oh, I have no idea what’s going on.” And they, students won’t lose credit, they’ll just get the credit once the strike is over and the final grades go through, if final grades have to be postponed. And that’s if they have to be postponed. We’re hoping and not— we’re hope— we’re hoping administration comes to their senses, but they don’t seem to have a lot of senses, uh, with this group of bozos at the top here. So I don’t necessarily trust, but we have to keep applying pressure. So that’s— that’s what I’m doing. I’m basically like shaving off a little bit of the, the later work and what would be kind of like, goes through the finals period of time. I have some flexibility. Others— other faculty don’t. And we’ve had some really intense and I think productive conversations within our union and with faculty who have like, where— where the timetable is more difficult to adjust like that. And so what we’re saying to all hold together is that what we— things we can’t do while we’re on strike, but, uh, you know, we’re leaving like how faculty adjusts getting up until that point up to them. For instance, there’s might be some flexibility on if I’m gonna leave my D2L shells that have, you know, examples and have kind of how-to-guides, uh, live, even though I’m not gonna be adding or— or evaluating any new material on it. Um, other faculty are just are totally turning their off. So you’ll go there and it’ll be a blank— blank slate. Um, there’s some flexibility there. And so long as you’re not, you know, grading, not answering emails, not holding classes as the main point of work stoppage. But circling back to your question, how can, if students— if folks wanna help each other, how we’re helping each other in, uh, as faculty? We have, um, both an ongoing hardship fund, that I recommend faculty apply to for, um, the deadlines coming up. It’s the 20— February 24th. Right now, the deadline’s the 28th. That’s a sort of regular thing we have. We’ve also been building a strike fund over the years that we’ll distribute. Uh, what we need to figure out. Um, I don’t know the exactly parameters of how we’ll distribute that to our— to our faculty and AP workers. And then also AFT our sort of parent union, uh, American Federation of Teachers, has some strike funds as well. There’s also, Oregon has a wonderful new law that allows for workers on strike to get unemployment insurance for up to 10 weeks. Um, so I recommend any faculty listening to get that, uh— get that lined up for March 11th and apply right away. There’s some kinda like waiting periods, but it’d be good to kind of get in that system. For students. Um, like Ben mentioned earlier, um, we’re hoping that our picketing at all the campuses will not just be sort of a show of force administration. Will be a place of community aid as well. Um, where we’ll have food, we’ll have some other resources for folks or students who might not get that otherwise, if the, you know, dining halls are closed, et cetera, et cetera. Um, we have resources for broad— more broad community aid connections, in Portland.

Miri: I just think it’s interesting that this is so. That everything you’ve been talking about, and so much of the stuff that Ben was talking about as well, is focused on community aid and mutual aid and people working together to support each other and themselves. And not, I don’t know, not just crossing their fingers, closing their eyes and closing the door. Um, not just waiting it out with the— the rock rolled over the—the entrance. Um, having all the people work together to, and even to just continue to support students as a priority, which I think shows the dedication of everyone who’s gonna be involved in this. Their priority is students and to help students. They have to also take care of themselves, which is something that the administration is not— not seeming receptive to.��

Jacob: Yes. Our, I mean, faculty, our working conditions— our working conditions are students’ learning conditions. So, we have to look out for both. Um, and throughout all the conversations we’ve had within our union, um, all the concerns really, you know, we’re all concerned about ourselves, but so many people are concerned about how this affects our students and to minimize that impact. Um, and, uh, we’re working really hard to make— make that happen, but we can only go so far as administration is willing. Uh, if they’re willing to burn it down, then we’re gonna have, you know, problems. So I think that, uh— that students, if they wanna support, if they wanna make this quick show— show up at some of the picket lines, um, I would, to be honest, I’m not even sure that any of the communications that are being sent to the president’s office or even to the board of, uh, directors are going through at this point. Um, if they are, they’re certainly not paying attention to them. So I would really prioritize, uh, showing up in person. Um, we’re working hard. To make our pickets, um, uh, accessible, um, in a lot of different ways to make our actions going on forward, um, uh, accessible to, uh— to focus hard of hearing and all different ways. We’ve sort of failed in that way, I think, up until this point. Uh, but now what we’re really, uh, angling that way, but, and also providing, uh, food, providing, um, space, uh, for people to— to be there at the picket line, but to take part in a way that works for them and to be able to, um— to gain access to community aid and, um— and just sort of to be part of community as well if— if those things are missing, uh, when the school is shut down.

Miri: So what is the outlook at PCC right now? How are people feeling about leadership and about how that will? About what that will make the future?

Jacob: So, um, leadership is looking real bad right now if you ask me. Um, they’re not doing themselves any favors. And the reality of it is that this president and this board of directors from this point out, when you Google their names, they’ll have attached to them, uh, that they had the only student walkout in, uh, on their watch in— in PCC history, at least that I’ve heard of. And the only strike in PCC history that has ever happened as far as I can— as far as a quick Google search will tell you. And so that’s not a good look for any of these people if they’re looking to, um— to continue on and, um, uh, you know, use this as a lily pad, which unfortunately happens a lot with college administrations.

Miri: Is that a common feeling right now that a lot of the administration is using this as something on their resume?��

Jacob: Yes. Definitely, certainly in the—in the president’s administration, however, they— so that’s, that’s my pooh-pooh, for those folks to get their— get their act together and that’s the, unless they want that to be their legacy, which is really, it’s starting to solidify that that will be their legacy. However, um, and I wanna attribute this in particular to the student activists. Uh, for the Save MSA campaign, we’ve had some really great, uh, relationships built with individual members of the board of directors of PCC. So their, ostensibly, their job is, um. They’re publicly elected by— by region in the, in PCC’s area, uh, you know, publicly elected like any other, you know, like city council or any other official. And their job is to oversee the president and the, um, the administration they’re in. They’re in general failing in that— in that, um, in their job. However, we have, um, had some great conversations. We have a number of, I say really strong advocates on the board of directors whose relationships have been built through the faculty and in particular the student— um, students involved in the Save MSA campaign. And I think that those relationships are something to build from. I think a new PCC will be born from the good people on the board of directors who are working actually at the, um, who care about the students, who care about the institution. The other people will come or go as they, you know, as they will, but, and I— I don’t want to pay them too much. Mine, I don’t think they’re worth it. But, um, because I have done so for over a year with these various campaigns. Um, but the people that are worth, um, that— that really put the school first to put their constituents first and our students first, I think there’s some hope there and I’m excited about that to grow from it. And so that’s— that’s— that’s leadership. But then on the flip side of it. I, you know, I’ve never been in a working situation where there’s been so much unity with my other, my fellow workers as— as here. And then same with students, the student activism that’s been going on and students caring about their programs, caring about each other and looking out for each other. I see it every day in my classes. How— how much y’all care for each other, how much you’re excited for each other to succeed. It’s so inspiring. And I’ve never seen that at any other places I’ve taught. So that is, that’s like a— that’s a spirit that’s not, uh, going away no matter what this administration uh, tries to do. So that’s my hope. Um, I have very little hope for the few figureheads at the, um, at the top of the— of the whatever ladder. Uh, but I have—��

Miri: Inverted triangle?��

Jacob: Yeah, exactly. But I have a ton of hope for— for the rest of us. And I think that we should, you know, lean on each other, rely on each other, uh, help each other out and make a noise to really push, um, uh, push our future through here.

Miri: Me too. I said this at the end of, uh, the last MSA episode I did where PCC is a huge school and a hugely influential school. And I think if the changes that need to be made are made here, then it will make it 10,000 times easier for everyone else going through similar struggles down the line to have something to look at and know that they can do it too, and have a model with which that they can base their efforts off of.

Jacob: I think you’re a hundred percent right. I feel like I already see that happening. I see that happening with my, you know, my partner teaches at Portland State. They’re—they’re—everybody’s paying attention to what’s going on now. There’s a lot of eyes on us and a lot— a lot to be inspired by. I think, um, both with the solidarity shown with, um, workers and educators and— and students as well here.

Miri: Yeah. And, uh, you know, as if it was a perfect visual metaphor, which the poor listeners won’t be able to see, uh, as this conversation’s gone on, the rain has stopped and the sun is finally starting to peak through some of the clouds.��

Jacob: A new day is possible and we just need to make sure, um, uh, we’re, we’re all around and healthy and happy to see it. So I’m excited about that. As to, I— I, overall, I’m excited for the future of this institution. Um, I think we have to all stick together right now— um, to push it through. It’s like, um, uh, it’s not the darkness, uh, it’s not the darkness of the tomb. It’s a darkness of the womb, right? Way to be born.��

Miri: Yeah. And, uh, especially with people like, uh, Alena and like Max and like Drew, who are just. Invested in not just completing their own education time here, but making sure that the people who are coming next and the people who come after that, and people who come after that can have even better opportunities than they themselves have had is inspiring and, uh, powerful. And they’re actually doing something to make that happen. Which, you know, I’ve been— I’ve been kicking around PCC for 10 years now. Uh, so seeing something like this is not something I’ve seen before and it’s— it’s incredibly inspiring.��

Jacob: Same here. I agree.��

Miri: So, um, again, thank you so much for taking time out of your morning to talk to us about this, and I wish you just the absolute best of luck in your negotiations and your, uh, if it comes to it in your strike and everyone getting through easily. Um, are there other resources that people should know about to learn more or keep updates or, you know, find other ways to support?��

Jacob: Yeah, so, um, is our union’s website. There’s lots of information there both geared towards, uh, faculty, general, public, and students as well. Um, and we have two informational, uh, uh, sessions for students happening this week. One is today four to five at Cascade Campus, Terrell Hall. And it’s also on Zoom. Um, maybe we can leave the link somewhere if it can go up. And then there’s one tomorrow, four 30 to five 30. It’s at Southeast actually. Um, and then also on Zoom, where students can go ask questions and get more specific answers. And then in terms of the, um, save music, Sonic Arts, , as a wonderful website with updates and information. And in particular, it has information I think is really useful for everybody in the Portland area, about who your PCC board of director is for your region. Um— and if you have any questions about who are the goodies or the bad easy, anyone can send me a note. I’m happy to answer that question. But just to be involved to realize that the board of directors of the PCC are elected officials, they serve the public. So if they’re not doing their job, they should get the step in and out the door. Um— so those are two resources and I appreciate you, Miri, and all the other workers on this podcast. All students and faculty, uh, and everybody in the public. Your support means a bunch, so thank you. And yeah. Solidarity forever.

Miri: Yes. All right. Thank you very much.

Jacob: Thank you, Miri.

Miri: With the administration, at the time of recording, refusing to budge, and the end of Winter Term approaching, how things are to go down appears uncertain. However, both PCCFFAP and the Associated Students of ˿����Ƶ have resources available for students to help ease some of those feelings. One of the most important steps for students is to get registered for spring term as soon as possible. Even if you don’t yet have prerequisites or aren’t sure what classes you’re supposed to be taking, signing up preemptively will make the transition into term as easy as possible. Additionally, faculty are working hard to try and make sure that student grades, degree planning and financial aid will continue seamlessly, and that community support will be available both in person and . We’re going into something new here and treading into a realm that in the history of PCC has yet to be explored. What is clear though, is that the success and safety of their students is these teachers’ number one priority, and it’s now on the administration to prove the same.

Kylo: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk! ˿����Ƶ’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at . This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the accessible education and disability resources department, and the PCC multimedia department. We air new episodes on our ,��, and .

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

Welcome to Let’s Talk!

Kylo: You are listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk!, is a digital space for students at PCC experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ˿����Ƶ PCC Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and .

Meet the Hosts & Today’s Topic: Surviving Societal Instability with Disability

Asher: Hello, everybody! My name is Asher, and we also have Asher DeHart with us. And, today we are gonna be talking about surviving societal instability as a person with disability. Do you wanna introduce yourself first, Asher, so we can get started?

Ash: Yeah. Hi, my name’s Asher DeHart. Folks call me “Ash”. I work for PCC AEDR and and PSU, although I took a break this semester because of all the crazy going on in the world. I have done mutual aid and disaster relief for decades, not only in Oregon, but other western states and across the entire United States. I’m a musician and an artist as well and I’m here to share some insight to help people cope with the changing times.

Asher: Sure! Thank you so much for joining me, Ash. And, once again, my name is Asher. I am working as a assistant podcast producer here with the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective. With how stressful life has been recently, we want to talk a bit about how to survive societal instability, especially for people with disabilities, physical and mental.��

Emotional Survival: What Self-Care Really Means

Asher: The first topic is we’re looking at emotional survival and mental survival, which I feel like is pretty important. So, what is self-care to you in your life, Ash?

Ash: Well, self-care to me is how I take care of myself. I think many of us, that are disabled or in other marginalized communities, are oftentimes caretakers and we do a lot of caring for everyone else around us; especially in troubling times like this. Because, we want everyone to be okay. But, in order to do that work, I have to take care of myself first. It’s been a process for me to learn how to practice self-care. But, self-care means doing the things that I need to do so I can be productive, reasonably happy, and effective.

Asher: Yeah, I feel like that’s very important for sure. I think it’s the same way for me; just self care in general. Whenever I’m having a difficult day, or I just need a step back, so I’m not mad at other people. To just do the things I love; at least that’s my definition of self-care.

Ash: No, I definitely agree with you there. It is really important to find positive things that we enjoy doing. To help maintain that status of self-care so we can be effective students, effective community members, effective activists, whatever our task in life is that we’re facing, is important that we can suit up and show up and be our best, even under extremely different difficult circumstances.

Asher: I definitely agree with you on that. Especially, those of us who have disabilities, whether it’s mental or physical disabilities, we need more self-care than anything else. Just to be very gracious with ourselves. I feel like we would struggle a lot more just with daily tasks in general and we just need to be kind to ourselves in that.

Ash: Yes, we do. And something I wanna add is we could have an ideal for self care, but we may not be able to meet that ideal every day or every week or every month. Sometimes we are only able to get part of the ideal met and that’s okay too. We shouldn’t judge ourselves, beat ourselves up, feel negative feelings towards ourself like we’re a failure, because we didn’t hit the mark fully on the self-care ideal. Any positive steps that we take to caring for ourselves so we can in turn care for our communities, our friends, our family is very important and very positive, and folks should be commended for that.

Asher: Definitely.��

Mental Health Supports: Therapy, Nature, Meditation & Community

Asher: You probably know this better than I do, but what are some mental health treatments? Only recently have I been diagnosed with ADHD and I’ve been to see counselors, therapist, and talking to my doctor of getting medication and all that. But, what are some mental health treatments that’s worked for you, Ash?

Ash: Well, I have ADHD, I have autism spectrum disorder, formerly known as Asperger’s Syndrome, and I also have complex PTSD, and anxiety, and a traumatic brain injury. Um. I have been to therapy for many years and I’m still in therapy. The standard pharma medication does not work for me, because I’m sensitive to medication. So, I have sought out naturopathic treatments for these conditions under the care of a doctor and I also use hemp-based CBD products that are free from THC. But, other things that I’ve done to help with mental health treatment, that are a little more outside the box than standard western medicine, yoga, meditation, I do a lot of time in nature. I spend a lot of time hiking in the forest and Forest Park and other parks. Because, it has been clinically proven that spending time in nature raises all the brain hormones and things up there that we need to feel healthy and good about ourselves. So, there’s a lot of different options as far as mental health besides the standard Westernized model. Support groups are also very good to participate in. Some people rely on 12 Step programmings, church, or other religious organizations to help cope with the things that they have going on. It’s a very wide spectrum of choice, as to what you can, do to increase your mental health capacity and to feel better. Especially, during these precarious times. I think one of the biggest is just community.

Asher: Yeah, I definitely agree with you on that, other than therapy sessions. I also have my own Christian community support group that I go to on a weekly basis, as well, just to help verbally, process things and to, get support from people and in turn help other people. I feel like is also very important with these trying times. It’s a give and take of helping other people and also receiving help at the same time, especially in community support situations.

Ash: Exactly, and oftentimes people who are disabled, or from marginalized communities, don’t know how to receive. We know how to give, and we know how to give, and we know how to give. But, sometimes we don’t know how to receive and I suffered with that for a really long time. ‘Cause with complex PTSD and being traumatized at a young age I became very self-reliant on me, and me alone, because I had a hard time trusting people. Over the years, I’ve had to work through that and I had to learn how to trust people to help me. In doing so, it’s made my life so much better and I just celebrated 12 years clean in November, which is just a really wonderful thing. Because, I was able to allow people to help me.

Asher: Congratulations! That’s definitely something to celebrate, for sure! I hope you’re taking yourself out to celebrate, or at least celebrating with some friends that have helped you along the way in that!

Ash: Definitely! There was birthday cake!

Asher: Yes! Let’s go! That’s always the best thing!��

Healthy vs. Harmful Coping: How to Reach Out and Build Connection

Asher: I think you touched on a very great topic, as far as healthy co coping mechanisms in that of reaching out versus being afraid to reach out. What would you say is a healthy coping mechanism of reaching out to people?

Ash: So, here’s a healthy coping mechanism. You might decide to volunteer at the local animal shelter, or you might decide to volunteer serving meals down at Blanche House, or you might go on Meetup and find a hiking group or a book club or another group that shares a common interest that you may have. A detrimental coping mechanism could be; you might go to the bar every night hoping to make friends. And, for some people that’s okay but, for a lot of people, that could lead to excess drinking and putting oneself in situations that could be hurtful or dangerous. So, I learned a long time ago that the bar was not the place for me to make healthy connections. I learned how to make healthy connections with people at school, with people at work, with people that were doing mutual aid in the community, helping other houseless people, things like that. It took me a while to have the courage to be able to do that; it took years. Because, my first few years back in Portland, my trauma was so strong. I had a hard time making friends. I had a hard time reaching out. It took a long time, but I did it one step at a time. And, some days it was baby steps, other days it was bigger steps. Then there were some days where I had a few steps back and isolated more. So, there is a spectrum to developing healthy coping mechanisms. Everyone’s timeline is a little different, but there’s many options out there, especially here in Portland, for finding ways to build community and healthy ways.

Asher: Yeah, for sure.��

Finding Community in Portland: The ‘Portland Freeze’ & Giving People Grace

Asher: I relate to your story, and I’m sorry that you had to go through all that too. It’s difficult right now, especially in this day and age, where I feel like a lot of things are online and trying to meet with people in person; it’s difficult. Especially if it’s like a really big community group. You sometimes get lost, or, if it’s a smaller community group, it’s pretty tight knit and it’s difficult to get in and meet people and make potential lifelong friends. But, I’m also glad that you managed to find the support you needed.

Ash: And, I’m glad that you found it too. Portland does have a freeze. Their whole Reddit page is devoted to the Portland Freeze. People are friendly and nice here, but when it comes to really making friends, it can be difficult. I think a lot of that ties into the neurodivergency in this town. There are so many neurodivergent people in this town. Folks want to be friends, folks want to reach out, folks want to do things; and yet, sometimes, when it comes to taking that step, they don’t know what to do. So, you don’t get that phone call from the person you gave your number to, or that person that you were going to have coffee with might have canceled. But, it isn’t for us to take that personally. I’ve chosen to look at it from the standpoint of perhaps this person too feels nervous or scared, or may be neurodivergent, or have other mental health issues that are preventing them from stepping fully into the arena of friendship and community. I try to allow people the space to do that, because it was definitely given to me when I wasn’t able.

Asher: I definitely agree with that.��

Resource Roundup: Support Groups, Street Roots & Disability Master Lists

Asher: What are some resources for families and individuals? Support groups or communities, people that we can reach out to whenever we’re having a difficult time?��

Ash: There’s a lot of groups. Particularly for the autism folks, Oregon has a number of autism self-help groups. There’s a number of community groups centered around neurodivergent people. I think we’re gonna list those all at the bottom of the podcast page, so people can take a look through there. Also, one that I like to stop by is downtown. It’s the Maybelle Center for Community, it’s right in Chinatown, and it’s a place for community. It’s a lovely spot and anyone can go there. Housed, unhoused, everyone is welcome. It’s a place for folks to sit and talk and find community. Also, too, I’ve met a lot of really great people volunteering for the Blanche House. Because, there’s all kinds of people that spend time, volunteering there. I’ve met a lot of great folks that way as well. Again, there’s lots of stuff on Meetup too. All kinds of different organizations and groups. If you’re a student at PCC, there’s all kinds of things on campus where you can make community. The Women’s Resource Center, the Queer Resource Center, the Veterans Resource Center, and all kinds of clubs and activities. Community is there so, whenever you’re ready, reach out and find what matters to you and meet people that share those interests.

Asher: Definitely! Thank you so much for sharing all those different resources. We’ll definitely place them at the very bottom of the podcast in our resource list. If you want even just reach out to a local church or a local religious group, as well. I’ve only found out about this recently, but there’s something called, ““, and correct me if I’m wrong, Ash…

Ash: Oh, yeah! “Portland Street Roots”. “The Street Roots” are the folks that put out the newspaper and, the formerly houseless people, write for and sell. Some people, still houseless, are involved in that project and they also put out the little books with all the resources that you see around town. There’s also a lot of resources there that are available; anywhere from housing, to community, to medical, to groceries, all kinds of stuff. There’s also the Oregon Disability Resources master list. That was compiled by the University of Oregon and it’s called “Able Find”. That has everything that you could ever need for disability resources across the entire state. We will post that at the bottom of the podcast.

Asher: That’s so cool! Yeah, I didn’t know about that little booklet until a friend of mine shared it with me, because she was in need. She was like, “oh yeah, I found this really cute little booklet that a community member gave me!”. I took a look at it and, man, it’s a hefty read! But, it’s also encouraging to see how many resources are available in Portland. All you need to do is just look it up and just ask, really.

Ash: Yes, and it covers not only Multnomah County, but also Clackamas and Washington.

Asher: Yeah, for sure.��

Physical Survival: Food Help, SNAP Gaps, Pantries & Meal Delivery

Asher: With that, that is a great segue into our next topic, which is about physical survival. Recently there was that whole government shutdown and SNAP Benefits being delayed and all that. It was very heartening to see local coffee shops come together to provide food for those who have missed their SNAP Benefit Payments, and are unable to provide for themselves.

Ash: I haven’t had some experience on this recently helping others to locate food who had lost their food stamps. Again, the street roots guide has every food bank in the city listed. So, that’s an excellent source of information on where to get box meals, meals to go. I’m a big fan of “Neighborhood House” up in Southwest Portland. They serve the Southwest side of town and parts of the Northwest side of town, but anyone can go there and they have lots of fresh produce and they’re open several days a week. There’s a plethora of food pantries around the city. Again, Blanche House has meals to go and sit down breakfast, lunch, and dinner. You can find times on their website. All your social service organizations like “, and they use salvaged items that are donated from restaurants and other organizations, and they cook both a meat based meal and a vegan meal once a week. You can sign up on Wednesdays and that meal is delivered to your door on Saturdays. No questions asked. It’s really great and it’s super helpful to be able to get a hot meal to folks if they’re hungry. Also if we have any students or listeners today that are seniors, Meals on Wheels is still servicing the Portland area, despite cuts from the Federal Government. So, if you are disabled or 60, I believe it’s either 60 or 65 or older, and you need food service; please get ahold of them and they would deliver hand cooked healthy meals to you. and others give out meals, snacks. There’s lots of ways to get food in the city if you need to eat. Another really great organization is the “

Asher: I’ve heard a lot about Meals on Wheels. I heard that their meals are pretty good too.

Ash: We also have heaps of Free Food Markets and Farmer’s Markets in the city. They have the PSU farmers’ market, they have Farmer’s Markets available in all different neighborhoods. PSU and PCC both are doing free food markets. I think that’s really wonderful for students and faculty alike. Both have the food pantry, so that no one is going hungry on campus.

Asher: Oh, yeah. For sure. I heard about the Free Food Market only recently; running through hard times myself and needing to find a couple things to fill the pantry. The Free Food Market, especially at PCC, is a great resource, that you could find on the Panther Hub and also on the PCC home webpage.

Ash: Definitely.

Shelter 101: Overnight vs. Transitional Shelters (and Housing Barriers)

Asher: What are different kinds of shelters available? And once again, Ash, you’re the most knowledgeable out of the two of us. Tell us a little bit about all these different shelters that we talked about initially. First, “overnight shelters”. What are those?

Ash: Okay. So, overnight shelters, also known as emergency shelters, are short term overnight beds for folks who are in need of shelter. What that translates to is you go to the shelter, we’ll take the one over up in Northwest Portland, on 14th, you line up, you get a bed, you get a nice meal, you get to sleep, and then they wake you up the next morning and you are on your way. It is not a reserved bed situation. So, you’re not gonna come back to the same bed every night. You could be in a different bed, or you might have to go to a different shelter. Basically, that’s what an overnight shelter is, or also known as an emergency shelter.

Asher: Oh, interesting. Wow. What about transitional shelters?

Ash: Transitional shelters are a little bit different than overnight shelters. A transitional shelter is a shelter where you come in and you maintain the same bed and you are able to store your stuff there in a locker. You come in every night at a certain time, check in, et cetera. Most of them have a curfew. But, you come home to the same bed every night. That provides a bit more stability, especially for students and working folks, because you’re not running pillar to post trying to figure out where you’re gonna stay. If Overnight Shelter A is full and Overnight Shelter B is full where am I going to go? A transitional shelter is a guaranteed bed. Some have no exit date like the TPI Couple Shelter, and other shelters run by TPI. They do not have an exit date and you can stay as long as you need to, as long as you abide by the program rules. And, some have exit dates of six months to a year, two years. It just depends on the organization that’s running it.

Asher: I bet. Correct me if I’m wrong transitional shelters, in this sense, is for people who are looking for housing? Or is that a different kind of shelter where they stay there, but they’re also in like a queue for low income housing?

Ash: Many folks who are at Transitional Shelters are in queue. They have a voucher or they’re waiting on a voucher. They’re either looking for an apartment or waiting for that voucher to come through, so they can get the apartment and move out of the shelter into long-term housing. But, you also have people at transitional shelters who do not have a voucher, who are working, or going to school, and they are utilizing services their until they can, maybe, get the savings up. Because, landlords require so much now to rent in Portland and the surrounding areas in Oregon. You have to make three times the rent. You have to have a certain amount of money in savings. You have to have been at your job at least six months. And, that’s for all parties involved in a housing situation, in a standardized apartment, or house rental. So, not everyone has that, so they’re able to utilize the transitional shelter until they can get that job that’s going to help them move into better housing situation, or they have the job and are waiting to get the savings up, so that the landlord will approve. There are transitional shelters for families as well. So, that is the difference between an overnight shelter and a transitional shelter.

Asher: That’s very cool. Yeah, I have a couple of friends who were in transitional shelters, at one point, and then they transitioned out into more permanent housing, or into roommate situations too. I totally agree with you, with the idea of rental stuff; it’s so difficult that there are so many different kinds of conditions. Even when you move into a rental agreement there are some things that you’re not allowed to do. Especially, in my situation where I’m living at, I’m not allowed to have guests in the home, unless clearly specified during the day and no overnight guests as well that makes sense too. But, it’s also just very difficult to plan around get together with friends from outside of the home and you always just need to meet outside and stuff, which is very difficult.

Ash: We’ve seen since the pandemic that landlords have just become tighter and stricter, and stricter, and stricter. I can understand why landlords want good tenants. I’m not really here to discuss that. What I’m here to discuss is that some of the landlords have become so stringent that it’s just denying people housing. Especially, disabled, persons, and persons from other marginalized communities. So, at what point does an overzealous landlord, become discrimination? That’s perhaps a topic we can discuss on another podcast. But, people wonder, they’re like, “why are there so many houseless people in Portland?”. Well, because the landlords want things that most of the general public just don’t have. You have to be in a certain income bracket to even begin to qualify for housing unless you’re getting subsidized housing. Then there’s a wait for that too.

Asher: Oh yeah, for sure. Definitely.��

Safety & Specialized Housing: DV Shelters, Youth Shelters, and Sober Housing

Asher: The next shelter is “Domestic Violence Shelters”. Tell me a bit about those. It’s also very self-explanatory itself, right?

Ash: So, domestic violence shelters are shelters that accommodate folks who have faced domestic violence in the home, sexual violence, human trafficking, child abuse, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, stalking. The spectrum of what is entailed under the title of “Domestic Violence” is quite wide. So, if you have been a victim of any of those that I just listed, you would qualify to be housed at a DV shelter. DV shelters are normally very confidential, they’re in confidential locations. There are certain sets of protocols that, participants and staff abide by for the safety of all those who live and work there. It is a safe place for individuals; male, female, trans, non-binary, other marginalized genders, children, and their pets can come and seek shelter, seek safety, and rebuild their lives after a devastating incident of violence in the home or other DV related incidents.

Asher: With Domestic Violence shelters, is there a period of time for people to be in those shelters, or are they able to stay like indefinitely, or is it like a case by case kind of basis?

Ash: It is a case by case basis. It also varies from state to state and program to program. If we have any listeners today, who are being abused, I just wanna say that has happened to me in my life when I was younger. There is help out there and I came through it, and you will come through it too. If you are in the Portland Metro area, you can call the ““. You can also call, ““, and you do not have to call the police to receive services if you do not want to call the police. YWCA also has a domestic violence program and there are countless organizations in the city; such as “Rafael House” and others that you can get referred to. They also have the “Address Confidentiality Program” in Oregon and that is a safe mailing address so you can receive your mail without fear of interference from a batterer, or trying to find out where you might be.

Asher: Oh, wow. That’s a lot of moving pieces. You’re right to say that it’s definitely like by a case by case basis. Maybe some people need to stay a little bit longer, or some people are just looking to get out of the country or state. I’m sure there are services that help in that.

Ash: Yes, there are. There are relocation services here in Oregon for persons who are being abused of all genders. So, if someone needs that, “A Call To Safety” or “Gateway” can help with that too. Because, a call to safety and gateway are the two. Big organizations that place people and they are 24/ 7. There’s also the ““, which we can list at the end when we do the resources list. We’ll make sure to have all that in too.

Asher: Oh, yeah. Definitely. The next kind of shelter is a Youth Shelter. What’s a Youth Shelter?

Ash: So, Youth Shelters are for young people who are not with their parents or legal guardians for whatever reason. Youth Shelters, generally, take children and, I think it’s up to 23, here in Portland, from six to 21, 22, 23. These are shelters for children or unaccompanied minors who’ve been abused and they have various confidential locations throughout the city for Portland’s youth who have been abused. They tend to house children within their own age group. So, the older kids will be in the older kids’ house, and the younger kids will be in the younger kids’ house. They help children who do not have the option of going back home, children or teenagers who may have been kicked out for being trans, or non-binary, or another marginalized gender, children who may have been kicked out for being gay, kids whose parents just chose to abuse them, for whatever reason. These are safe places, that young people can go to receive help. And Portland, again, has several agencies for, youth that are in need. One of the main ones is right downtown near Powell’s, and it’s called ““. So, if we have anyone listening today who’s being abused in that age group, stop by “New Avenues for Youth” or try to give them a call and get some help. Because, you deserve to be safe, you deserve to be heard, and you deserve to be accepted just how you are and for who you are.

Asher: Oh, definitely. Yeah, I totally agree with that. Is there also a transitional period or like you said, that they house up to 25, or was it 23?

Ash: I think it’s 23 in Oregon. It varies from state to state, but I’ll have to double check that one. There are short term programs, there are longer term programs and there are programs to help get kids get into housing. I know that ““, also in the southwest region of downtown, outside in does a lot of work with the youth that are on the streets too. So, if you can’t make it over to “New Avenues For Youth”, you can stop by “Outside In” and request services there or give them a call. Again, if you are a young person who is being abused at home, or in whatever situation you are living in, you can seek help without having to call the police if you don’t want to.

Asher: Oh, yeah. Definitely. Next is Sober Housing. I can sort of guess just by the name itself; Sober Housing basically is for those who are getting out of drug use and alcohol use, probably.

Ash: Sober housing is for folks that are in recovery from substance or alcohol. Most sober housing requires complete abstinence from all drugs and substances, including THC, even though it’s legal. You have privately run sober housing, that’s run by individuals in the community. You can also have sober housing that’s run by the ““, which is a long time group that’s been around for decades that provides sober housing for folks. A lot of organizations that we’ve already discussed in our discussion of shelters; domestic violence, they too have options for sober housing. TPI just opened a sober shelter for folks who are houseless, but that are trying to maintain recovery, or who just choose not to drink, or take any kind of drugs or smoke weed and would like to be in an environment where, they’re not going to have a bunk mate, in the next row over, that might be drinking or using.

Asher: Are there also, once again, long-term programs and short-term programs for sober housing situations?

Ash: There are. And, there’s sober living where you can just go for a couple of months. There’s sober living that’s more intensive to where it could be a year to two years. It just depends basically on what you need as an individual. The rents tend to be quite less than what you would pay for a room in a house, or in an apartment.

Asher: So, for sober housing, different from shelters of course, you would need to pay like a fee to have a place��

Ash: yes, but there are agencies that help cover sober living costs, especially when someone’s first getting outta treatment and needing to go to sober living. There are organizations that help cover that. If you’re a musician who has published anything, “” actually pays for treatment, sober living, and therapy. So, they’re a great resource if we have any listeners today that are published, musicians in need of help. Get a hold of “Music Cares” in Los Angeles. They’re a subsidiary of the Grammy Corporation.

Asher: Oh, wow. All the way in LA. Wow!

Ash: Yeah, and they helped people all over the United States. They helped me.

Asher: Oh, sweet! All these shelters, we’ll put all the different resources definitely down in the, resource links below.��

Rental Help, PCC Care Team, and Eviction Defense Resources

Asher: Are there any other housing and rental assistance, or eviction defense and other PCC Housing Resources that you can think of, Ash?

Ash: Sure! Housing and rental assistance is a big one. “” does a lot of work in that area. I know that TPI provides rental assistance to their clients; when they find a place they help them get things paid for. Again, Street Roots, your number one go-to guide for everything you might need. As far as social services, they have a whole section that lists rental assistance in all three counties; Multnomah, Washington, and Clackamas. Local churches oftentimes will do housing and rental assistance too for both people that visit their church and also for folks that don’t, as charitable contributions. I think “Rose Haven” does some rental assistance. I’m not sure how much. But, again, we’re so lucky here in Portland that even though you may have difficulty finding housing; once you do find housing there are folks there that can step up and help you get that first month’s rent, that last month’s rent, and that deposit together. “” does a lot of work in that area, “

Asher: Are there any PCC housing resources that you know of, Ash?��

Ash: I know that The Care Team, Haley and them in that office, they do great work when a student becomes houseless or needs stable housing. I know that PCC just opened an apartment building that’s low income for students. I recall reading about that. But, if you’re in need of housing resources and you’re a PCC student. You can go to the Queer Resource center, you can go to the Women’s Resource Center, you can go to the Veterans Resource Center, you can talk to a professor, or someone in student services, and they will write a referral to The Care Team. You can meet with a care representative who can discuss your situation with you privately and get you the help that you need. They’re great folks in that office. They work really hard to help PCC students and their families. If anyone’s listening and needs assistance, don’t be afraid to reach out for help ’cause the help is there.

Asher: I wish I would’ve been able to reach out to, PCC Housing Resources back when I first started with PCC. I didn’t really make a very good choice with my first living situation. I looked for a place to live in on Craigslist of all places! I was very young and uneducated during that time. So, that was… But, you live and you learn and I’m glad to hear that there are all these different housing resources in case I ever do come into rough times and all that. So, yeah. Highly appreciate that.��

Ash: You also mentioned eviction defense. Clear Clinic is the stalwart in eviction defense here in Portland. Their office used to be located at PCC Cascade, and I would come and work for them on Fridays. I still, hand out flyers for them and stuff. But, they have moved to the East Bank Loss, on Ash Street. They still have the same website, but they are no longer tied to PCC. I think that the work that they were doing, just became so widespread in the community that they needed to spread their wings and grow, and I commend them for what they were doing. So, the Clear Clinic, they do eviction defense, they do expungement for misdemeanors and other expungable offenses in the State of Oregon, they also handle DACA and name and gender changes, and they’re doing wonderful work in this scenario, that we’re currently facing, with immigration law. If you need any of these services go to the website, give them a call, they’re wonderful people and they have wonderful folks that work on the eviction defense team. I’ve seen many success stories come out of the work that they do there for folks who are being faced with losing their housing.

Asher: Yeah, that’s a very important resource, especially just with how expensive everything is getting, just with how the rents are not matching up with the living rates.

Ash: I definitely understand what you mean and there is a need for folks who can do eviction defense in the State of Oregon. Here’s the wonderful thing that a lot of people don’t know; in the State of Oregon you can be a paralegal and do eviction defense. You can only do eviction defense, but you can still do eviction defense without having to be an attorney. So, if we have any paralegals out there that are retired, or someone considering maybe a career in the law, eviction defense is a growing field and it’s wide open for paralegals in Oregon. Take a moment to investigate and see if it’s right for you.

Asher: I love that! I had no idea that was a thing! Legal stuff wise, I thought that would just be like a lawyer’s job. I didn’t know that there was a specific role, as far as, eviction defense and all that.

Ash: Yes, there is in Oregon and we’re really lucky to live in a state that allows that.

Rebuilding Community: Starting Conversations & Coping with Loss

Asher: Community, as far as physical survival. We as humans, we’re not meant to be by ourselves. We’re meant to be with other people, whether you’re introverted or you’re very extroverted, you wanna be around people. The first question, for me is it’s been difficult also just over the years, is how do you reach out to people when you don’t know how to? When I first came here to the States, I didn’t know anybody. I didn’t know anybody at all. The only people I really knew were the family that I, pretty much, couch surfed with and even then it was difficult to just reach out to a community that I met for the first time. What’s your experience in that, Ash?

Ash: It can be very hard to reach out to people when you don’t know how to. Coming from the environment that I was raised in, I really wasn’t shown how to do any of that. So, I had to learn on my own through trial and error. But, for me it’s just always been about going, “Hi! I’m Ash! What’s your name?”. Just a simple act of kindness is saying, “Hi, how are you today?”. You never know, it could open up the doorway to conversation and friendship. So, I just really strive to live my life by just reaching out to people with kindness, reaching out to people with care, even if it’s just a, “Hi! How are you?”, or “have a good evening!”. Just acknowledging other human beings that are in my immediate sphere, in my day-to-day life that I pass, or that I see at work, or the grocery store, or here or there. I’ve made friends through playing music, and I’ve made friends through work, and I’ve made friends through making art; I met my partner at a concert after a protest. So, I had to overcome my fear of humans by learning how to just say, “Hi, I’m Ash! How are you?”. When I got comfortable doing that, over a period of time, then I learned that I could talk more with people beyond that.

Asher: Just taking the initiative and just like reaching out and be like, “Hi! My name is this…”.

Ash: Nine times outta ten, I think other people are afraid to take the initiative now. Just pinging back to the whole technology thing; we love technology, as long as it’s used responsibly. Technology is a good thing. But, it has also trained people not to be forthcoming, in person. Because, everyone’s staring at a laptop, or a screen, or got a phone in their hand, or this, that and the other. So, in-person communication skills are not what they used to be, and I realized that if I wanted to make friends, I needed to take the initiative.

Asher: I’m definitely guilty of that. Of having difficulty, as far as communication wise in person, it’s so much easier just to text people. You’re able to formulate what you wanna say without tripping over your own words and you’re able to delete stuff, you’re able to add things like later on down the line. But, yeah. I totally understand what you’re saying; reaching out and taking the initiative first to reach out to people.��

Ash: In person communication requires the ability to be vulnerable; and for those of us that are marginalized, for those of us that have PTSD, for those of us that are autistic, or with other disabilities, it can be very, very hard to have that vulnerability. So, hard!

Asher: It’s so hard!��

Ash: But, It can be fun!

Asher: Yeah, it can be fun once you like get over the jitters, get over the awkwardness of getting into a conversation, and really start rolling. Then probably, yeah, you would be able to have a very fun time and meeting new people and discovering stories and all that. It’s what I love.

Ash: Yeah, I mean. You helped me so much, Asher. Because, remember when we first met? I was kind of shy and I was nervous and didn’t know if I would fit in working at PCC. But, you and several others, that we all worked together, it’s made such a difference in my life. Like my job with PCC has made such a difference in my life as a human being, as an activist, as an artist, as a musician, as a human. And, it came from the friendliness, and compassion, and acceptance that was shown to me by everybody in the AEDR office. So, hats off to you Asher! ‘Cause, you really helped me!

Asher: Aw! It’s okay! It’s what we at Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective do! We want to spread awareness and we also just wanna make it an inclusive environment for people of all backgrounds, and all nationalities, and all different disabilities. Last question, what can we do if we lose our community? Over the years, just with myself, I’ve gone through so many different communities and a lot of communities that I had to be like, “this is not helping me anymore”, and to step back and other communities that pretty much just “left me on read” or “ghosted”, if I were to put it in like a dating sense, if that makes sense?��

Ash: Yes. There’s a lot of different reasons why someone could lose their community. They might move, they might change schools, they might have had a falling out with someone in the community. There’s a lot of different ways people can lose community, and losing community can absolutely gut a human being. It’s a very hard thing to go through and I’ve been through it once before and it was devastating to me and it contributed a lot to my complex PTSD. It took time to heal from losing the community; working with the therapist, talking that through, becoming okay with myself and realizing that. What happened really wasn’t my fault. That the best thing I could have done for my own self was to just walk away, because my ideals didn’t match up with the ideals of the community that I was with at the time. So, there’s a grieving process, yes, and once you heal you come back to yourself and then you have the ability to go out and make new community. But, there is a grieving process there, and a healing process, and it is different for everyone. So, if you do lose your community, don’t be afraid to take the walk through the process to heal from what you just lost, so you can go make more friends and more community. Because, it’s really important to honor yourself in doing so.

Asher: Thank you so much for sharing that, Ash! That’s very, very encouraging and I totally agree with continuing to still just being open to finding new friends and finding another community even after if you lose your other community.��

Ash: Yeah, like when I used to drink and party, I had heaps of friends and this and that, and I had lot of friends here, friends there everywhere I went; friends, friends, friends. But, once I stopped drinking and I stopped getting high and doing the things that I was doing. Those people didn’t wanna be my friends anymore. That kind of made me sad because I certainly didn’t judge them for what they were doing. But, it was just a fork in the road for me. I had to heal from the fact that those folks couldn’t be in my life anymore and I couldn’t be in theirs. But, I had enough dignity and self-respect for myself to know that, I’m gonna allow myself to feel these feelings, which kind of suck, but then, on the other side, I’m going to continue on with my life and I’m gonna make new community wherever I go.

Asher: For sure.��

Closing Thoughts, How to Reach the Podcast, and Final Credits

Asher: And, for those of us, who are listening in, if you ever need community and you wanna reach out to us, go on and look for us on Let’s Talk Podcast collective or even reach out to us through the Panther Hub. Also, Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective. Thank you so much, Ash, for speaking to me on all these different topics and I’m sure we’ll look forward to our next episode together to talk about more topics. As far as, how to help others with disabilities during these trying times. Thank you so much!

Ash: Thank you so much for having me, Asher. It’s always a pleasure to come on the podcast and be a part of this community and I’ll have Asher post my public email at the bottom. So, if anyone wants to reach out, you can totally email me and I will respond. Thanks so much and have a great day, wherever you may be.

Asher: Thank you so much.

Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk ˿����Ƶ’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at . This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk Podcast collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Assessable Education and Disability Resource Department, and the PCC multimedia department.

We air new episodes on our home website. Our Spotify Channel,, and .

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Miri, Asher, and Julie

Preamble

Miri: In Spring 2025, ˿����Ƶ announced that it was running an internal evaluation of its programs. Three of them — Russian, Gerontology, and Music and Sonic Arts — did not meet the school’s expectations, and were intended to be cut. This announcement garnered both surprise and outrage from the student body and the local community alike. Since then, there has been a grassroots movement led by some Music and Sonic Arts students to bring awareness to their program, and gather support from the community in opposition of the program being shuttered. With signs pointing toward the ultimate fate of the program being on the docket of an upcoming PCC Town Hall, I reached out to talk to a few of these student leaders.��

Guest Introductions

Miri: Okay, so I’ll ask everyone to introduce themself and we’ll just go clockwise.��

Harper: Alright. I’m Harper Treadway. I’m been part of the MSA program since winter of last year.��

Liam: My name is Liam Grouell. I’ve also been a part of the music program since winter of last year. It’s my second year here, term two. I’m hoping to transfer to PSU next year, so.��

Miri: Congrats!��

Alena: My name’s Alena. I use she/her pronouns. I started at Music and Sonic Arts way back in Winter 2023, so I’ve been here since then.��

Max: My name is Max he/him pronouns. I am an audio visual artist studying creative coding in the Music and Sonic Arts program here at PCC. And this is also my second year. And yeah, we’re here to talk about the program and all the things that are happening at PCC right now. So, yeah.��

Miri: Which there’s only a, a few of, you know, only a, maybe two —

Max: Just a few minor things. Only a couple things��

Miri: — at most.��

Max: Three worth noting. Yeah.��

Miri: A hundred things.

Max: Right.��

Getting to know the contestants

Miri: Um, so you two are pretty close to finishing the program then, right?��

Alena: Yeah.��

Miri: Gonna be, is this your last capstone coming up next term?��

Alena: Yes.��

Max: Yes.��

Miri: Nice. Um, do you know what you guys are doing yet?��

Max: No. No idea. I would love to incorporate something with surround sound. I have some tracks that I’ve worked on in Ableton that I’d love to just like completely pan apart and split and gut, and strip down and spread across a room somehow and do some cool stuff with that. But, other than that, the capstone is still, yeah, it’s still pretty up in the air. Yeah. But, um, I’m sure we will come up with some pretty fun stuff.��

Alena: I have like this idea of incorporating dancers and having some type of, like, tracking function where like they follow the hands and feet and the head and the middle of people’s bodies, and then we have sounds that happen with each movement of those. I think it’d be really fun to have that incorporated into it. I also have no idea how to do it.��

Alena: And I’m excited to learn and see if I do have an opportunity to learn how to do that.��

Miri: Oh yeah. I mean, there’s a, definitely a P5 library for that. I’ve, uh, used that a couple times. And this is gonna be your guys’ first, capstone this year?

Liam: Uh…��

Harper: Be honest. I don’t know what a capstone is.��

Miri: Fair enough. Yeah. It’s, it’s the, it’s the piece of an arch or a doorway that goes in the very top and keeps the whole thing pressurized downward. Um, which�� —

Max: We’re talking about like a literal capstone��

Miri: Oh yeah. Wait, what did, what did you think I was talking? Uh, yeah, it’s, it, it is a. the culmination of everything you’ve learned so far. Like sometimes it’s at the end of each year, like in this program, sometimes it’s the end of your whole schooling, like, for a lot of film schools.

Liam: It’s like an event.��

Miri: Yeah.��

Liam: Yeah.

Alena: It’s the event that happens every spring over at the Paragon, where they invite Music and Sonic Arts students and creative coding students to get their own separate thing going. And then they have a project that they show in spring over there where people can come and check it out.

Harper: Gotcha.��

Miri: And it’s always super cool. I remember, I always go obviously as an alum of that program, but it’s always some super cool stuff. I went, uh, before I started the program when I was just thinking about it the first time and there was this real time rendered spaceship thing where you could go into warp drive by pushing an actual giant physical Oh, sweet. Like, lever all the way forward, and it would go and the lights would speed up.��

Max: Oh, that’s awesome.��

Miri: It was super cool. I just remember that. That’s really sweet. That one thing, like most specifically. Yeah. And having worked on two of ’em, that’s still the thing I remember most, which is from when I was not there.

Liam: Jessie, last term was showing us some videos of like, the previous capstones. It looked really cool. Like all these different sort of interactive installations.��

Max: Well, what’s cool is like, you’re, you’re a guitarist, right?��

Liam: Yeah.��

Max: You’re a musician. I mean, we can incorporate — with the creative coding stuff — live music into our installations, so it’d be cool to work with musicians in the MSA program to do stuff like that. Yeah. Like, I know Renee plays a lot of instruments,��

Alena: Yeah.��

Max: It’d be cool to have her come in and, and maybe play for us or something.

Miri: I mean, it’s a program that gives everyone the opportunity to mix doing live music with performance art, with, you know, machine learning programming.��

Max: Right.��

Miri: All done on your laptop.��

Max: Literally. It’s mind blowing. It’s — it’s truly magic. It’s fun and exciting.��

Miri: So what brought each of you into this program specifically?

Harper: Well, I was originally gonna do computer science in college, because I was in the mindset of, “Oh, I need to do something that’s a little more stable.” And then I realized the computer science industry is not stable and that I don’t really want to do computer science, so I just did music. ‘Cause I’ve already been working on music for around five years now, or I guess six years actually since it’s 2026, which feels weird to say honestly. But, um, yeah, I don’t know. I just did the program ’cause I wanted more formal training, I guess, in like, compositional techniques and stuff. And just developing my skills.��

Miri: And now you get a little bit of bonus computer technology.��

Harper: Yeah. I mean, now I’m, I’m taking like audio programming and uh I wanna take like microcontrollers and stuff. It’s really cool.��

Miri: And what about you?��

Liam: So for me, all throughout, later in middle school and high school, I’ve been doing all sorts of music and just being, self-taught and just fiddling around. And, my si — older sister Carissa actually went through this entire program, she’s now graduated from PSU, and it really inspired me to do this program. Usually music was just kind of a hobby, but I decided to fully commit to it, and yeah, I joined this program because it was just a really good option. And it was close to home, it wasn’t terribly expensive. That was mainly the major thing was the — was the expenses, but, you know, Chris had told me that, you know, this is a really good way to connect with people. Really cool community, really diverse community. So yeah, that, that’s, you know, why I joined the program. You know, it’s been great so far. I’ve gotten to meet a lot of really cool people, this class has been great. All of our professors are great — shout out Sarah — uh…

Alena: Sarah!

Miri: Everyone loves Sarah.��

Liam: Yeah. Everyone loves Sarah. Our president, our leader.��

Harper: Sarah G Gaskins.��

Liam: Yeah.��

Harper: Our��

Max: leader.��

Liam: Our leader,��

Max: yes.��

Liam: Um,��

Miri: Putting the G in O.G.��

Max: Yeah.��

Miri: Stands for Gaskins.

Liam: Yes. Yeah. Uh. But yeah, uh, that’s my, that’s why I joined the program.��

Miri: What about you?��

Alena: Um, for me, I had just a wild time in my K-8 and my high school education. I was a COVID class, but I also really struggled with your typical format of education. I dropped out of high school freshman year, and then just refused to do any sort of other education besides that. And then during that time when I dropped out, I got really into producing music and just learning all about the industry. I grew up as a pianist. My parents forced me to do lessons, pick an instrument and do it for K through eighth. So I actually really hated music for most of my childhood. But then after eighth grade and going into high school, I was like, “Woah, I actually really like piano.” And then I was like, “Whoa. I actually were like recording myself playing piano,” and then I was like, “Oh, I can manipulate like the recordings of me playing piano.” And then I was like, there’s a whole thing called a DAW where you can manipulate audio and it blew my mind. And I, I personally, like, as a human being with ADHD, just could not focus on anything else except that. So that was part of my choice to drop outta school. And then I basically just got a high school diploma because I was the COVID class and they were giving it to everyone. So as hard as that year was, I was also really grateful that I was just given a diploma regardless. That being said, I realized then that maybe if there was a school that was all about manipulating audio and learning about audio, that I could be interested and get behind that. I’m originally from Seattle and I really wanted to no longer live in Seattle, just to some negative experiences over there. So I decided that Portland was close enough for me to still feel far away, but also have access to home if I need it. And then I saw this program and it was all over from there. I absolutely, I thought I was just gonna do it part-time at first. And then within my first term I was like, I want to do nothing but full-time. I wanna take as many classes as I can and I want to learn it all. And I since then have had many fun different career opportunities, and I think all of ’em are because of the foundation and the confidence this program has given me.��

Liam: I think networking is one of the big things that’s not really talked about when it comes to the music program.

Cause then on top of the education and the access to resources, there’s also a really good networking.��

Alena: Yeah.��

Liam: Yeah. Um, and I’ve, you know, with, with Mac for example, he was able to use, by the way, just to give some context: Mac — our friend/ classmate Mac — is working on a program that’s really cool. And for beta testing, he literally just talked to everyone in class. He was able to get a whole bunch of people just, you know, to actually use it. You know, real musicians, you can give feedback directly to him. So that’s a good example of like where the program really does stand out for people.��

Harper: Absolutely.��

Miri: And networking is important in this, in any art field.��

Liam: Yeah.��

Miri: But especially in music, because you don’t get a degree and then apply for jobs in music.��

Liam: No, no. Yeah.��

Miri: You’re gonna��

Liam: You know someone who knows someone who knows someone.��

Miri: Yeah. So how did you get in this program?��

Max: Yeah. So, I was studying for a year at Western Washington University in Bellingham. I really wanted to get into their production program, but I didn’t really have the confidence to like, get myself to take the classes I wanted to. I also had to take a lot of pre-reqs to get into those classes, so I couldn’t start the program immediately. I got really discouraged really fast and I decided, I’m gonna come home, I’m gonna move back to Portland and get my footing and go to PCC and see what they have to offer. And I ended up here and I’m now like a year into the program and I’m absolutely thriving. And I’m finding myself making, lasting friendships, and networking and finding other creative artists who I wanna work with. Alena and I are working on some projects right now with, other artists in the community. It’s been really great and the teachers here are awesome and super supportive and give you everything that you need to succeed and more. The resources here are unlike any other institution I’ve, been at or heard of. I know that the creative coding program here specifically is unlike any other program in the nation. And, uh, yeah, for a long time I’ve, really wanted to, accelerate my knowledge in music theory and production. And this program has definitely given me the confidence to do so. Now here I am.��

Miri: So would you have have come back to PCC were it not for this program?��

Max: No, absolutely not. Yeah. Um, I would’ve, I would’ve, uh, searched elsewhere for something similar But, I found myself in the right place at the right time and, luckily this program wasn’t closed before I got here. Um, you know, so I’m, I’m actually part of the last cohort, I think you guys are too. I think we’re all the last cohort.��

Liam: Yeah, we’re all the last cohort that was allowed through.��

Max: Right. Yeah. So, after us, nobody can join the program and complete it, so. As of right now.��

Miri: Yeah. What about you? Is this the reason that you came to PCC, or this program, this kind of experience?��

Alena: Without a doubt. Yeah, without a doubt. I had looked at other kind of traditional music programs where it was like performance and classical and I just could care less about those since I had so much of that as a child. Wanted to separate myself from that. And I was also just so interested in specifically all the ins and outs of what goes behind recording audio. Like it just fascinated me. I never really saw myself as a college student until I started coming here. so PSU was not an option because, you know, it’s a large financial commitment. And also I didn’t, at that point I was like, “There’s no way I’m gonna go to PCC and an actually graduate with a degree.” Like, that was my mindset when I started, was just kind of get myself settled into Portland and find a community.��

Max: Right.��

Alena: It wasn’t with the intent of ever graduating and immediately I just, it’s just sparks, I was just like, I actually do wanna be a college student and I actually do wanna get a degree.

Liam: Yeah.��

Alena: And I actually am ready to fully commit to that. So definitely what this program has to offer, and the uniqueness of it, is a hundred percent what drew me in.��

Max: Yeah. Pretty much same.��

Harper: I mean, it’s, there’s not really like any other programs like this, in the country, even. I mean, I, it just music performance overall, like obviously it’s still a good program to do for some people, but like this kind of program moving forward into the digital future that we’re moving towards, like these kind of skills are so much more applicable to just anything in the art field, you know? Compared to, compared to something like taking like classical music performance, then like playing in an orchestra, like that’s awesome still, but, you know.��

Max: The window for that type of career is a lot smaller,��

Harper: Right, yeah.��

Max: Uh, and, and more competitive than the window for the careers that are available through this program. And I think what’s really, beautiful about this program is, how accessible it is for beginners, and the level of experience that you gain from highly experienced professors at such a high accessibility, right? Like, I mean, you don’t have to pay an out-of-state tuition to get this experience, and be in a huge lecture hall where you don’t get any one-on-one interaction with a professor, like, at all. Learning about, you know, maybe similar things, but, here you’re not on your own. We are a very tight-knit community, like in our classes, we, you know, are talking to each other all the time about things outside of class, like how life is going and the outside world and, so on and so forth. And we talk about what’s going on right now in our program all the time. We talk about how our program’s getting cut, we talk about these things in our classes. We have a very unique community here. And I think that this mix of, like, highly experienced professors, along with a really intimate learning environment, gives way to this really unique path. to success in the digital creative world.��

Miri: Absolutely.��

Max: Yeah.��

Liam: I’ve seen a lot of people, like, I remember my first term here, Theory 1 was my very first class, and there’s people in there that said like, “I have no experience with instruments or anything like that. I’m just, I just, I’m interested and I wanna learn.” And then this year I’m taking, you know, a theory four class with the same people we’re all talking about, complex theory.��

Max: Yeah.��

Liam: Like a different idea is like, what if we use this chord with this chord Totally. And then transition with the five seventh grade. Like, I think that’s just, that’s just incredible��

Max: right?

Liam: That over the course of four terms, these people that have little to no experience with music can be just as informed on intense theory is people who have been doing music since they were five,��

Miri: Yeah, definitely. And you know, you’re a metal musician��

Liam: Yes.��

Miri: And not a lot of opportunities to study that.��

Liam: Yeah.��

Miri: Unfortunately.��

Liam: Yeah. There’s no screaming classes, unfortunately,��

Miri: Dude, there totally should be Even if there was like an expanded vocal techniques class, sort of like, you know, week one death metal growl, week two, black metal growl, week three, screamo.

Liam: Yeah. And then we get the gutturals.��

Miri: And I think they should just use the, really echoey stairwell over in the, um, yeah. Where it just bounces off all the, all the concrete everywhere. It’s the coolest sounding building.��

Liam: Oh, imagine many like a death metal choir, like an or rock. Wow. Yeah.��

Miri: Um, but, uh, I know a lot of people come to this program because they don’t want to play live music as their career. People come here are like, I played piano and that was kind of annoying. And then I realized that recording piano and messing with it in post-production is actually super awesome. So I want to study that, and turn that into something.

Liam: Something that I’ve noticed is like what Harper was saying you know, you can go into like a program focused on playing in orchestras, playing live music, where the program here at PCC, it’s like, “Here’s all the resources, here’s every aspect of the music, here’s the theory, here’s the recording studio, here’s the music in combination with coding.” And all these different things, and it’s splayed out in a way that you can apply those things to a lot of other topics. You can focus on the rhythm or the theory and stuff like that and you can go into music or you could take the coding somewhere and work at a game studio.��

Miri: That’s what I want to do, I came into this ’cause I wanted to do game sound.��

Liam: Yeah. Composing for games is like a partial dream of mine. Composing soundtracks.��

Max: Sound design. I agree. Sound design. Sound design in general is so fun.��

Liam: Yeah.��

Miri: Yeah. ’cause a lot of other places where you can study audio production. It is either just for film, which is most of what I studied over in Chicago, and learning how to record other people’s music! And, you know, like, oh yeah, you’re gonna be a: your job is Producer. You have people come in and hire you, and they record their songs, then you make it sound good, and then you send ’em back home. And that is kind of an outdated way to do a lot of music production. Like, that’s how some big bands do it. Or if there’s a studio that you really like, you’re gonna go in there, but a lot of the time you’re gonna go in with a fully prepared, mixed, mastered demo that you recorded yourself on your couch, or you went over to your friend’s house because they have the, you know, $5,000 PC and, uh, can actually record without latency. And then, you know, that is the guy who’s making a couple hundred bucks at a time maybe. But also recording their own music and putting it out there as just a way of expression as much as a way of trying to source income. This being a program that teaches Ableton or MAX, all the things that are the musician side of the producer side of the whole industry, is super valuable compared to, I mean, not to knock pro tools, but it is the worst program ever invented by man.��

Harper: Hard agree.��

Miri: Awful. It’s,��

Max: it’s archaic. It, it really is.��

Miri: You’re like, wow. This was designed in 1989.��

Max: Yeah, right.��

Miri: Good job! Did you, have you like, updated it since then? No? Interesting!��

Max: And it’s, it’s really interesting that they’re trying to strip us of programs that will give the community technology literacy, software literacy, whatever, like those things are incredibly, increasingly important, becoming increasingly important. Especially for musicians, a lot of the new ways of production, like you said, are completely digital. It’s like, oh yeah, dude, like, send me those samples that you made. I’ll chop ’em up and make ’em into something else.��

Harper: I mean like, like bedroom pop, hyper pop.��

Max: Totally. Yeah.��

Harper: Those genres are completely defined by being digital format.��

Max: Absolutely. Super independent, creative.��

Miri: Often in non-traditional DAWs��

Max: Totally. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And so a lot of these skills are taught here. A lot of these skills are very accessible at PCC through this program. We have access to, so much technology and so many resources, it’s a shame that that’s being overlooked. Yeah.��

Miri: So you’ve been kind of taking a leadership role in this, uh, this. Revolution is not quite an accurate term, but��

Alena: I would say so. I would absolutely say so, because this is never, specifically what’s going on and the pushback from both directions has never happened in the history of PCC. So I do see it as a ˿����Ƶ revolution without a doubt. And I don’t, I don’t think there’s any other word for it. The year it was announced that the program was closed, I took a little gap year break because, my boyfriend wanted to go to nursing school. So I was in Kansas when they announced the program closure and it helped make my time feel miserable. Prior to the program closure, I had been participating in music club and being a leader in music club, with some of past students who’ve done it, and through leading music club, I just realized how not only the program and the education I receive here and how important it’s to me, it also got me really connected with students and leading and organizing music students. And that began to be really special to me. So then when I was in Kansas and I started getting these emails about the program closure, a lot of panic set in that, one: I couldn’t be there, but two: I think that really fueled my fire, then, to as soon as I get here, to help get business rolling, and to be there for my student community. I’ve always really enjoyed leadership positions. that being said, also, like this program truly means the world to me. And to see it be threatened, um,��

Miri: activates that instinct,��

Alena: activates my mom a bear instinct though. Please get your hands off my program.

Alena: Um, so I have not a single problem leading. And in fact, it helps, soothe my mama bear being able to be in control and help motivate students to also take charge and speak up for their program.��

Max: Yeah.��

Miri: So what was the town hall like last week?��

Alena: It started off with a rally. We had faculty and we had community members and students, and it was powerful. The amount of people that showed up to rally prior, before the board meeting, I think spoke volumes to how much this impacts not only the students, but the community as a whole. It felt good to make our presence known and to let them know that we’re not gonna let up, and that this is going to continue and it’s not gonna stop anytime soon. Then, during the board meeting, a lot of my classmates spoke like Max.��

Alena: I’m very proud of everyone who spoke and I felt like we all communicated our thoughts and feelings. I particularly in the past, have felt intimidated by the board members, but I’m really starting to refresh myself of they’re just people. And I wanted to come at them with the angle of, “I’m just a person too,” and just to get grounded. And that felt nice. The board meeting, and specifically the part that didn’t feel great, was after public comment. Tiffani Penson, the chair of the board, wanted to make a comment to the public speakers, for non agenda items, work for Music and Sonic Arts, and she addressed us with a phrase of,

Tiffani Penson: So listen, I can talk to you or you can leave. It’s one or the other. So, so what I do wanna tell you is that I know it’s hard and sometimes we have to do things that are hard, but I am just saying we appreciate all. I’ve seen all of your emails and I’ve asked you guys, if there’s information that you have that we are missing, to forward it to the administration and forward it to myself, and I’ve never received anything. So again, I do thank you. I thank you for your, um, compassion. I thank you for your commitment, but this will be the last conversation around this. [Crowd Noise].

Alena: You can’t really hear it in the audio that is included but the room immediately broke into frustration. You can hear bits and pieces of that in the background. There were some things that were not only unprofessional, but that were hurtful and directed to the Sonic Arts program. So that did leave a lot of students feeling flustered, but I think it also left a lot of us feeling that fighting back is the right thing to do and that there is a reason why we need to fight. And she gave us a reason to fight.��

Miri: Reinvigorated.��

Alena: Yes.��

Miri: Yeah.��

Alena: We then utilize what we have control of, which is we can do chalk on campus at Sylvania, at the specific areas we’re given, and we can also do chalk all around public ground. So then that was a great way to go out and do that. I ended up that night going to every single campus and writing about the Save MSA website on every single campus. And I hope that students go and check it out, . And that will have all of our facts and then some actions that the public can do to help support the program. So I think it, yeah, it, reinvigorated is just a great word to describe. As difficult as it was, I think, a big push came from that.��

Miri: Yeah. I know a lot of people both students of this program and, employees and students at large in PCC felt like there had been a shocking lack of transparency and,��

Liam: oh, yes. Yes.��

Miri: Um, like explanation of decisions or even just that decisions haven’t been made.

Max: Yeah.��

Miri: For a lot of things. So what do you guys think about that, and how should they communicate the ideas behind decisions that are made?��

Max: Yeah. Um, well, as of right now, there’s really no foundational trust between students and administration. Um, there’s no foundational trust between the public and administration. The trust isn’t there between the faculty and the administration. Their intentions are vague, and often kind of behind a curtain. And a lot of their decisions to cut this program have been based on false data. So, you know, these cuts feel targeted in a way. Um, they do feel very intentional and it doesn’t make sense. This is a big program with high enrollment and high graduation rates. You know, there are a lot of part-time faculty here that are on payroll that, if were to be gone, would probably save the school some money. So it does feel a little targeted. At the heart of this really, there’s a lot of emotion and we’re all really embarrassed by this. The community’s embarrassed. Faculty are embarrassed. Alena and I spent a lot of time, between classes writing chalk, writing messages and chalk around campus. Just , save Music and Sonic Arts. And uh, actually the maintenance team was hastily ordered to scrub it clean the next day, and they were embarrassed as well. Uh, we talked to them directly and they were all, uh, quite embarrassed to be ordered to do something that went against their good nature is good people. ’cause, you know, getting an order from the top, when you’re at the bottom to do something like that to other people who are also at the bottom. Is, uh, quite demoralizing as a person, just as a human, you know, so. Having to watch that too, as just another person, sucked, you know?

Liam: Yeah.��

Max: Seeing these guys that were just like, “Yeah, I’m, I’m off in like an hour and I have to do this for the rest of that time.”

Alena: Just the act of trying to spray chalk in support of the music program and being told specifically, we clarified with them it was not just on school grounds. It was anywhere including public grounds where there was chalk in support of our program to spray it,��

Miri: Which I noticed coming in today, that a lot of it had been redrawn over.��

Alena: Yes.��

Miri: And clearly removed in some more forceful way than had been expected, especially because it was on the sidewalk and other things that I didn’t know that PCC was in charge of cleaning.��

Alena: Yeah, they’re not. Um, so we have, we, I, I have looked through the laws of Portland chalking, and educated myself on the school policies and where our boundaries lie. Like we are an urban campus, therefore there is an aspect of public accessibility that happens when you have an urban campus. So the fact that they were going beyond what the school is in charge of to try and silence students, I think speaks volume to this being a targeted attack.��

Liam: Yeah. Even one of the security officers walking around, he was telling us that he talked to when he was out observing the chalk, and he said openly to the security officer that he thinks that some degrees are more valuable than others,��

Max: That’s right.��

Liam: And that art isn’t valuable at all.

Max: Right.��

Liam: Especially the art degree or, and just any art. So,��

Max: So basically just to make this clear, the head believes that, uh, the arts and music are not valuable in society, and therefore are not worthy of funding from the school. From the school. Yeah.��

Liam: Yeah. You have that. Correct.��

Alena: And therefore any pushback should be silenced��

Max: Yes.��

Alena: Via power washing chalk.��

Max: Yes. Right.��

Liam: Yes.��

Max: And, yeah. All of the school security officers that we talked to also thought it was nonsense that they wanted to scrub the chalk, or that they want to cut our program in general. So they’re all on our side. It’s crazy. It’s like, how could you not support our program? It’s like we’re a bottom up grassroots movement. We are in the community working with the community to make the community better. Cause they’re trying to take our community away.��

Liam: Yeah.��

Max: Like from the top, that’s what is happening, and we can’t avoid it any longer. We can’t dance around it. You know?

Liam: I’ve talked to strangers at concerts, like, on like, you know, an underground punk show and you, they’re like, “Hey, my best friend’s at the PCC program.” Yeah, yeah, yeah. For, you know, you know, just meeting other people and, you know. Totally. It’s, it’s a lot bigger than people think. It’s a lot more ingrained in Portland than people think.��

Max: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.��

Miri: This show is broadcast on, on KBOO the third Friday of every month, so. You know. Shout out to us, I guess. Um, but, you know, it’s a completely volunteer organization, and every time that I go in regarding this topic, the people there are like, “Oh yeah, I studied at that program”, or “Oh yeah, you know, our, our, our sound guy right now he’s from that program.” That kind of thing. So it is just completely coincidentally, constantly encountered out in the wild in my job, which isn’t even music based anymore. You know, this is a, a volunteer radio station that just is two thirds people who have gone through this program.��

Max: And that really just highlights like how deeply embedded into this community this program is and this school is. I mean, there are four different campuses. Four or five different campuses around four, four different campuses in each corner of the city.��

Miri: And the CLIMB Center,��

Max: Uh, yeah. Sorry, sorry, my bad.��

Alena: Also the, uh, one in Beaverton, Mill Creek.��

Miri: Right!��

Alena: Mill Creek. And they got chalk too! I chalked their campus.��

Miri: I remember Mill Creek. My wife taught there for a little while, so��

Harper: Yeah, I remember, I remember when they were still pretending that it was because there weren’t enough careers coming outta this program.

Max: Oh my God.��

Harper: Uh, Ben Tyler, it was like last year I was taking one of Ben’s classes and I remember he gave us a story about how he went and played the band for like a Ted Talk, whatever. And he said that he literally saw one of his students running sound for the event. And I’m like, if that’s not the greatest example of this thing creates careers, this program creates opportunities for people.

Max: Well, there’s a,��

Harper: oh my god,��

Max: there’s a projected like what, 20,000 jobs in the state of Oregon for audio?

Alena: Yes.��

Max: Engineering, live audio, live sound.��

Alena: Yeah. Specifically also, I would like to speak to like my own career encounters. So I, when I started school, one of the jobs I picked up to support myself at PCC was teaching something called EMC. It’s a local Portland group, we teach at afterschool clubs at Portland Public Schools, and we teach Ableton to kids. That alone is like my why of like, why I’m ready to fight because every year I like to introduce myself to kids as a student before I’m a teacher and let them know that I’m also a music student and I’m also studying Ableton and music production. And every year I get a kid who says something like, “Maybe I’ll go to school with you one day, miss Alena!” And every year, except this year, I’ve been like, “Yes, heck yes! Like, maybe I get to teach you!” I would honestly love to teach at PCC and specifically teach some licensing or music business, which is a class that they’ve shut down in the past, that I would love to bring up once I graduate. That being said, this year it breaks my heart because the schools also I’ve taught at so far this term have been SUN schools, which are publicly funded schools for low income families. These are the students who need a community college. These are the students who will not afford PSU, and these are the students who do not see themself in any other college except something that’s accessible and that is their interest. These are students who have been using GarageBand since they were five, and these are students who are going to stay fascinated, and I can see the passion from day one, and it’s not gonna go anywhere. And it needs to be able to go somewhere in order to support them in a career when they’re older. That alone there is one of my whys of why I’m fighting and why I’m pushing back is for those students who are going to rely on having the accessibility to a program like this. I’ve also worked for Marmoset, the large commercial licensing company in Portland. They’re all over what’s going on, and they are without a doubt in support of saving the program. They’ve hired many, many, many, many, many students from here, and just that company alone has brought in multi-millions of dollars into Portland and Portland musicians. I also, currently, right now I’m in an internship at a publishing company, the only publishing company in Portland called Radio Tower Music Group. They have actually come to the board meetings. They didn’t come to the most recent one, but they came to the last one. They’ve also all sent emails to the board members, and they’re just baffled w’all that’s happening. Also one of our people from Radio Tower and who is helping mentor me, he started a company with one of his friends called Crystal Creative, which is another music licensing company. They just did the Superman trailer. They, they, like, they, they, they also bring in multimillions of dollars for Portland and local musicians. And I think it’s an absolute lie that there’s no jobs and no money for people in sound and audio and music.

Liam: Yes, thank you. I have to go, everyone.

Miri: And thank you for joining us.��

Alena: Thank you, Liam.��

Liam: !

Max: I think the hardest part about watching these cuts unfold is how we are losing as artists, the connection to the outer communities, and losing the trust of the outer communities. This city is run by artists and musicians, and it’s what keeps this city alive. And without these super niche programs and pathways to niche career opportunities, we wouldn’t have as diverse of a creative spectrum, I guess. Sorry. I’m trying to, trying to articulate, uh, my thoughts better.

Miri: Yeah.��

Max: We don’t, you can cut this if you want.��

Miri: No, I think that’s an important point that, that, you know, that creative culture and environment of Portland is objectively heavily influenced by what the people in this program have done.��

Max: Yeah.��

Miri: Whether the teachers or the graduates or the current students, everyone who’s gone through this program has made something that nobody else would ever have been able to make because it was them in this program.

Max: Right. It’s, uh, yeah, it’s, um, it’s definitely. Kind of a tragedy, you know? And, uh, that’s why we’re fighting.��

Miri: So what kind of transparency would you want from the school? So, this most recent winter break, the college was completely closed. Employees were not allowed to do work during the break period, which has not happened before in the entire time that PCC has existed. Four and a half straight weeks of nothing. Advisors weren’t allowed to reach out, a lot of lower level admin stuff was shut down, like the accessibility offices and all the resource offices. And the thing that has been frustrating, a lot of people in my department is, nobody knows why. Because everyone asks. You know, my boss asks, my boss’s boss asks, and they just don’t tell us. Which is so much worse than being like, “Well, ’cause we save, you know, $250,000.”

Alena: Right.��

Miri: Because if they told us that, then we’d be like, “I mean, that sucks, but fair.” But not telling us is like, It makes people feel like children. Like we’re being treated like, treated like children who are being treated badly.��

Max: Well, it also means that like they expect us and they expect the faculty to bend to whatever will that they have in that sense. So like, if they want to shut down the school and not pay their employees for a month, that’s, uh, something that they, they’re just gonna have to deal with. Like, it’s, it’s like you said, it’s like a child. It’s like a parent child relationship, and it’s not, it’s not fair. It’s also not fair as students to not have access to our resources for a month.��

Miri: Exactly.��

Max: If I am working on a project that I’m preparing for the next term, if I wanna get ahead of myself and like start preparing a project for like, Creative Coding 2, because I’m carrying my, project from creative coding one into the next term, into my next class, and I need help from my teacher, they’re not supposed to talk to me or like, I can’t email them and they won’t respond. Or if I can’t, like, get in touch with, uh, my advisor or whatever.��

Miri: Or if you’re a student with a mobility impairment or a learning impairment or anything,��

Max: Totally.��

Miri: Trying to reach out to someone, being like, “Hey, is this a class that I can physically take?”��

Max: Yeah.��

Miri: And then if it’s just gonna be silence for two weeks, then you know, that could either be a few hundred dollars wasted or just a bunch of undue stress of not knowing. What kinds of transparency do you want? If they come out tomorrow and say, “Stop talking. We are shutting down the program no matter what, and this is why”. What would you want to hear from them if that is their decision instead of just ghost?��

Alena: Yeah, that’s a great question. The respect I think we’re looking for is regarding specifically the facts for our program closure. A lot of the different points and facts and data that was gathered originally from our program closure, we’ve all proven they’re false. If you wanna look deeper into them, you can look on . But to speak to some of them specifically, some of the claims were that we had a low graduation rate. Since 2023 ‘ the MSA program has a 27.5% graduation rate. The average PCC graduation rate is 18%. We’re significantly higher than the average graduation rate at PCC, so we know that to be false. There was a lot of claims about specifically for the graduation rate, we know we looked into the data that the administration did originally supply us, and it was including all students who originally signed up for the MSA degree. But there is a large number of students who signed up for the MSA degree and who did not actually start a single class. They included that in the, the statistic, which then is going to give us incorrect data. In order to feel respected as a student, I would like to have data of students who are actually participating in the class. I feel like that would give more valid data to actually what’s going on.��

Alena: They’ve also claimed that there’s not enough students, we have empty classrooms. There’s 137 full-time students right now in our program. That’s also significantly more than other programs. So, once again, does it make sense that the claims that they’re making? Lastly, one of the claims that they’re making is that CTE programs are required to have a direct correlation with specific careers or job opportunities. That is nowhere. We, we’ve searched the PCC CTE requirements on the actual website of PCC.��

Miri: And CTE means what, sorry?��

Max: Career technical education.��

Alena: Yes. Um, there’s 40 other programs that are considered CTE programs at PCC. None of them have like a specific job that you’re gonna get lined up and go to, so for administration to make a claim that: Music and Sonic Arts lacks that, therefore we should be shut down, I think is an absolutely ridiculous claim. So if they were to say, “Hey, this is why we’re closing the program,” I think I would like them to exclude the CTE point because we’ve proven it’s false, we all know it’s false, and then I would like to see actual data that is from students who engage in the program. And also just to like, come to our school and see what we do, and then make a choice after actually seeing with their own eyes of what’s going on. That’s, that’s the way that I would feel respected.

Miri: Yeah.��

Alena: Yeah.��

Harper: They, they treat our program like, it’s like a high school administration where they would actually have the, the power to just do whatever they want, but then they forget that we are all adults that go here, who can do things.��

Miri: And pay for it.��

Harper: And pay for it. So. I mean, I literally, my high school, I went to a high school up in Canvas and literally almost the same thing happened to my high school. Not closure of the high school, but like $6 million in budget cuts which were discussed. And the entire school protested. And unfortunately it just went through because there just wasn’t enough support against that large of budget cuts. But like, it was just a lack of respect for the program because like other schools in the area, our school was like a relatively newer school, and more modern, I would say, due in part to being a pretty recent school, like we got like $6 million in budget cuts compared to the public high school that was, I would say, a more traditional high school that’s existed for longer. Nothing, or at least very much less. It’s just a lack of respect, and that’s exactly what’s happening here. It’s a lack of respect for the program.��

Max: Yeah. It’s tough to see the board be so divided about this, at this point. It’s clear that a lot of the board members are embarrassed that they have to sit there with other members who don’t support the program. For us as students, it’s imperative that we see a direct relationship between us and those who represent us. We want to see them walking our halls. We want to see them stop into our classes and see what we’re learning.��

Miri: Come to the capstone.��

Max: Come to the capstone. We want to see them come to events that we put on, at the school, led by students.��

Harper: It’s like arguing with like a corporation.

Max: Right? No, it does. And that’s, that’s another thing.��

Alena: Can I speak to that really quick? So actually something that Greg, one of the chair members, a comment he made after Tiffani Penson announced, “Hey, the conversation’s closed,” and then Music and Sonic Arts people walked out. And then if you watch, it’s posted on the PCC website, the whole entire board meeting. They then go into actual like policies and procedures and, you know, some of the. the stuff that they’re distracting themselves with, I would call it. And beforehand, most of the people participating in those conversations do make a statement regarding what’s happening. Greg, the chairman�� —it cuts out when it first starts, but he goes into discussing that he went and visited the jazz performance at the fall term. And that he went and saw the choir and talked about how good they are. And I think, some of them want to support, but they just don’t understand that Music and Sonic Arts is completely different from music performance. So I do agree that they should come specifically to our capstone. They should come specifically to Cascade Campus, and see our program and not just generalize us and bunch us in with music.��

Max: Right. I, I absolutely agree. It is clear that the administration wants to run the school like a business, but PCC is not a business. It’s an institution of education for the public, designed for the local communities. For people who either cannot afford to go to a four year state school, or just need a one-off class experience. I, I know PCC used to offer beginner technology classes for like elderly people who didn’t know how to check their email. It’s stuff like that that, like, I know things like that might not be getting cut elsewhere in the school, but, this program in specific is really the future of Portland art. I mean, it is. Especially over here on the east side where we’re surrounded by lower income areas. There’s nothing else like this in the city for these communities.��

Harper: And for a city with such a massive underground scene, in general, and local scene, it’s insane to say that a music program is not good for the, like,��

Max: so much good local music has been recorded on this campus, in the studio here. Local band Gonzalez, Harper and I recorded their recent —��

Harper: That was incredible.��

Max: Yeah. We recorded their recent demo release that just came out in November, and it was kind of incredible. It was one of the coolest things I’ve ever done in my life.��

Harper: First time I’ve ever gotten an opportunity to do something like recording a band like that, and it, it was — If I, if this program didn’t exist, I don’t think I would’ve ever been able to do something like that. You know?��

Max: No, never. And to say that I did that, and to have my name be on the back of their mix tape when it comes out, like, it’s like, “Oh my God, holy Shit” you know? I can keep that for the rest of my life and be proud of that. And that kind of exceeds any sort of superficial career opportunity that I might get, or whatever idea of that that the board has that this program is “clearly missing.” The experiences that I’m getting are also giving me those opportunities, these experiences of recording bands, and learning how to set up interactive, audio visual experiences in a performance setting or a gallery setting. Those are really niche areas of the creative world and the digital creative world right now, but they’re very important and they’re becoming more important. And I think they’re also kind of key to helping us move forward as a society, creatively philosophically too. Integrating these types of things into different parts of our world and daily life is what’s next, I think.��

Harper: And also just creating more accessible means for people to be creative like this. The skills you learn in this program, obviously we mentioned how applicable they are at everything, but also just the fact that this kind of compared to music performance, these kind of skills are much easier for someone who maybe doesn’t have an insane budget to spend on a studio. It’s a lot easier to apply these skills in their life, you know?��

Max: I think that the board probably sees this program is about like live music performance or being a musician, playing guitar, singing, playing piano, singing, It’s so much more than that. And even then, not everybody has the talent or desire or really just the energy or motivation to want to perform live. Because it’s kind of a chore sometimes to perform live. It’s very enjoyable, but I have tried my hand at it. I don’t think it’s for me. I’d rather be behind the scenes, working to put on the production. And there’s so many opportunities for that, career wise.

Miri: Do you all know, Dillon?��

Max: I don’t think so.��

Miri: He is�� — current? Former? Both? — You know, students at PCC tend to have kind of a tenuous relationship with being a full-time student. Because you know you’re full-time for a term and then you’re like, “Oh, I’m outta money, I gotta take a term off.”

Max: His name is Dillon?��

Miri: Yeah.��

Max: Is he Deaf?��

Miri: Yes.��

Max: Yeah, yeah, yeah.��

Miri: Yes.��

Max: He was in my microcontrollers class last year.��

Miri: Yep! He is absolutely insanely brilliant.��

Max: Yeah, he’s super smart��

Miri: And is a Deaf man in a music course.��

Max: Right?��

Miri: Because he is developing machinery and —��

Harper: Literally a modern Beethoven��

Max: Dude, it’s actually, no, it’s actually so cool. I remember what he was doing when we were in microcontrollers. It was this like frequency glove thing that like played a… I can’t put good words to what he did. It’s probably so much better than what I’m saying. I think it allowed him to sense whatever frequency was being played really accurately or whatever, and he could like learn the notes of the frequencies and, and, and such.��

Miri: Yeah. And he has been able to develop multiple software and hardware pieces of technology in this program that facilitate his ability to create music as a Deaf person.��

Harper: Yes! Thank you for putting better words to that.

Miri: I’ve talked with him a few times, so.��

Alena: I loved your interview with him.��

Miri: Oh yay! I’m glad. It was so loud in that room that day. Oh man. Um, but yeah, he, uh, he’s brilliant, and I know is not having a good time with the program being shut down and is being a very vocal, supporter of the program continuing and is a huge advocate for both hearing students and for what this program and the sort of technology developed in this course could mean for not just Deaf people, but other people with disabilities, whether vision loss or mobility impairment, anything, of being able to experience a more well-rounded and rich and colorful environment and life and way of interacting with the world.

Max: It’s incredible. Truly, truly incredible.��

Miri: He is fantastic and would be. Such a shame to drop the ability for people like him to pursue the things that he is pursuing in the way that he’s pursuing them.��

Alena: Yeah.��

Miri: By shutting down a music technology program that isn’t just focused on music performance.��

Alena: Yeah. In my composition class during fall, we had a guest speaker come in, Molly Joyce. She’s an advocate for accessibility in Music and Sonic Arts. She’s a disabled individual herself, and a lot of her music is about her experience with her disability. But she’s also an absolute modern day pioneer with advocacy and creating tools for disabled individuals to still have access and engage and specifically to express themself through art. Art is a birthright, and I think what Dillon’s doing, as well as Molly, and specifically the tools that this program offer, do give students an opportunity to advocate for that expression and make it accessible.

Miri: Yep.��

Alena: Yeah.��

Miri: So what is the next step? What is the next step for both students and for how listeners can get involved in this?��

Alena: So a couple things. For listeners specifically, the small step you can do is check out our website. It’s , one of the instructors from Sonic Arts, Erica made. It shout out to Erica. On this website, you can find links of specifically contacting the board members. Tiffani Penson at the last meeting made a comment that no one has sent her any emails, has shown any data, and she invites us to. So I would like to invite you to utilize some of those. We have all the board members emails, but specifically to send Tiffani the facts that we have documented from the website. You can be as simple as just copying and pasting and then putting it in her name and sending that off. If you’re a music professional, any backing from music professionals in Portland or just anywhere, who can advocate to us and also send an email to the board would be helpful.

Miri: Which I’ve heard you’ve got a lot of support from.��

Alena: Yes, we’ve had hundreds. Hundreds! we’ll keep on doing it. I would love for it to be thousands.��

Miri: Billions, even.��

Max: Would it —

Alena: Yes. We’ll make it undeniable. What were you gonna say, Max?��

Max: No, no, no. I’ll say it after.��

Alena: Okay. Um, then the next couple steps, the two other biggest things I would like to put out there, February 12th at 1:30, we’re gonna have a school wide walkout. It’ll be hosted at Cascade. We’re gonna have free food and drinks and as well as Sonic Art students are gonna perform some live music. February 12th, it’s a Thursday at 1:30 PM. It’s going to be also advertised via chalk at every and all campuses as well as student gov. So there’s the be the walkout. Any and all participation there is gonna be great. We’re gonna have media come out and the thing we want to do is to show a large number of people who are in support because I think taking the angle of specifically digital support, hasn’t been loud enough. So I would like to show physical support and physical volume of being loud. And as well, have it stream on multiple platforms. We have KOIN-6, as well as other medias and journalists coming out who are gonna help document it as well. The other event that is coming up is the February 19th board meeting. We haven’t confirmed yet, but we are still in the works of getting our proposal for our program on their agenda. I’m feeling hopeful about it from the most recent updates that it will get on their proposal. That being said, that’s the meeting that we really want to pack and fill.��

Miri: On February 19th?

Alena: February 19th at Sylvania campus at 7:00 PM. I invite anyone to sign up for public comment. As of right now, we haven’t gotten any news if it’s an agenda or non agenda item, but that will guide you of specifically how you sign up depending on all that. Those are the two big events that are coming up in February that are going to be a necessary part of showing student support. I think they’ve heard a lot about it, but this is going to be the showing of it.��

Miri: And as always, the capstone at the end of the year, which is just always a good experience, you know, whether or not you’re trying to protest anything.��

Alena: Yes, yes.��

Miri: Um, what about, what is next for students, for you guys?

Alena: What’s next for students is I’ve been in contact with student gov. We officially have really started to connect and start to problem solve of, what can they do? What do they feel comfortable doing? What are their plan B’s? What are their plan C’s? I think they have felt, from what I’ve heard, they would like to advocate for students and that they’re feeling sick and tired of what’s happening to students regarding all these budget cuts. So we’re exploring their freedom of expression. And once again, just falling back on, if there’s no rules, then there’s no rule to break, so we might as well just do it. I’m gonna have the student leader Fareeha, she’s coming in tomorrow, into campus on Cascade, and she’s gonna be joining me in class. I’m gonna introduce her to all the students, and just show her around campus, which I’m really excited about. And then they will be coming next week. They would like to make a survey to fill out students and they would like to bring the data of the survey to the Capitol, which will also be going on February 12th. The student gov got invited to go speak at the Capitol, and they’d like to speak about our program being closed.��

Miri: The Capital-Capital! Like in Salem?��

Alena: Salem, yes.��

Miri: That’s impressive!��

Alena: So that our, our No our next, our next steps is to bring. the capital into this. I think, specifically the claim of that Tiffani Penson hasn’t been sent any emails we all know is incorrect. We are also looking into giving a government audited email on her, because she is a public servant, so therefore her emails can be audited, and therefore we can disprove her and hopefully put it on posters for the February 19th board meeting, and of her email inbox and all the facts she has received. So that’s for students. And then it’s just the walkout. I’ve been inviting students via my email list for doing chalk around campus, and just getting loud. Get noisy.��

Miri: Awesome.��

Alena: Yes.��

Miri: You are doing some absolutely fantastic work.��

Alena: Thank you.��

Miri: And you and all of you should be very proud of yourselves, both for fighting for this and for the work that you do in the class regardless of this. You know, creating music and technology and putting them together and turning something that is the inkling of an idea in your head into something physical there in front of you is just one of the coolest things that a human being can do. It’s the thing that makes us human.��

Harper: Absolutely.��

Miri: As opposed to anything else.��

Harper: Yes.��

Miri: So, uh, thank you all so much for coming in and talking to me today.��

Alena: And yeah, thank you for giving us the space to speak.��

Miri: Yeah. Oh, always. That’s what, uh —��

Alena: Thank you for continuing the conversation.��

Miri: Yes. That is what we at Let’s Talk! are here for.��

Postamble

Miri: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk! As you heard in this episode, most of the frustration is held against the school’s apparent lack of transparency, and a refusal to, at least seemingly, consider what comes from the voices of others. It’s a tough time for colleges all across the country right now, with pressure from federal budget cuts, active soldier mobilization, and a rising anti-intellectualism all combining to create an incredibly stressful environment for educators. But the solution to that, at least I think, is rather than shut out students, faculty, and the community, to invite them in to be a part of decision-making and mutual support. With a student body of over 50,000, and an alumni body that is truly uncountable, ˿����Ƶ is one of the most powerful, influential, and beloved community colleges in America. This is the time for us to take on that role, embrace that role, and show students and educators across the country that; in these dark times, not only is it possible to survive, but to have our students and our communities thrive. All we need is each other, and it’ll all be okay. Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk.

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective

Introduction to Let’s Talk! at ˿����Ƶ

Asher: Thank you for tuning in to Let’s Talk!, ˿����Ƶ’s broadcast about disability awareness. Let’s Talk is a space for students from ˿����Ƶ experiencing disabilities to discuss perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. We broadcast biweekly on our home website, , and bimonthly right here on KBOO 90.7 FM. Today is the first Friday of the month, so we’re coming to you live from KBOO Studio. As the reminder, the views and opinions expressed during this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ˿����Ƶ, PCC Foundation, or KBOO FM. My name is Asher, and with me today are Miguel, Michelle, along with our special guest Jen Armbruster, executive director of Adaptive Sports Northwest. Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us today.��

Jen: Glad to be here.��

Michelle: Hello.��

Miguel: Good morning.��

Asher: Hi.��

Meet Jen Armbruster: Executive Director of Adaptive Sports Northwest

Asher: Well, uh, Jen, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?��

Jen: Sure. Um, I’m the executive director of , which is a nonprofit based out of Portland, Oregon, um, serving around the region. Uh, but we do basically recreational competitive opportunities in about 10 different ongoing sports and recreational activities ranging from wheelchair basketball to goal ball, archery, pickleball, track and field swimming, um, wheelchair rugby, you name it. We kind of have it, and that’s what we do. And we just provide opportunities, equipment, um, programming time, practice space, and coaches and volunteers to help run the programs throughout the year.

Asher: So, cool.��

Jen: That sounds fun.��

Michelle: Yeah.��

Adaptive Sports Northwest: Mission and Activities

Asher: Um, what is Adaptive Sports Northwest as an organization and what is its mission?��

Jen: Sure. So our mission is really to serve youth through adults, uh, with physical or visual disabilities, um, and meeting ’em where they’re at. So it might be folks that are wanting to try a sport for the first time, folks that wanna be competitive, even to the Paralympic athlete. Um, so we just are able to offer kind of a, a chance for folks to maybe try some things. As you know, affordability for adaptive equipment can be pretty costly. Mm-hmm. So we have over a hundred pieces of adaptive equipment ranging from hand cycles to sports chairs, tandem bikes, um, the goal ball goals, things like that. Um, that again, if you know a kid maybe trying basketball for the first time, maybe needs a new pair of shoes, that’s a lot different than a, a sports, you know, chair to play wheelchair basketball, that’s gonna cost three or five thousand dollars, right?��

Asher: Yeah, I know it’s expensive.��

Jen: So we, we, yeah, so we’re just providing opportunities for folks to, to, to, to enjoy sport and recreational activities. Um, but like I said, we have a lot of the equipment, we have the practice facilities, things like that for folks to be able to try that and, and recreate. And our biggest thing is really to build community. Um, I get folks that, you know, from a mentoring standpoint too, um, a lot of our adults help with the younger activities and different things. So it’s just providing that opportunity. We also go into schools, um, and provide a school networking program as well for folks to be able to, you know, maybe a kid with a disability in, in their PE class, right? So we are able to provide those options and those equipment for folks to be able to use that, utilize that sports chair, you know, for their basketball unit or their pickleball unit. Um, and we’re always there as well, just to help kind of guide, um, you know, and just think outta the box a little bit on how to make adaptations accessible for kids.��

Asher: That’s very cool.��

Jen: That is really cool.��

Asher: Yeah. I feel like I’m gonna be asking, or we’re also gonna be asking a lot of questions as far as like, terminology for these different equipments.��

Jen: Sure.��

Asher: ’cause,��

Jen: yep.��

Asher: Uh, I’ve never heard of any of these things before. .��

Jen: All good.��

Michelle: Yeah, same.��

Jen: Absolutely.��

Asher: Um, yeah. How did you end up joining them, like? Yeah.��

Jen: So I moved to the Portland area in 2010. Um, took a job at Portland State University as their inclusive rec, person enjoy starting the, at the campus rec, you know, at Portland State University, we’re the first time to hire kind of full-time staff to run that program, get that, you know, kind of in, in line with things. So everything from our rec center to offering actual wheelchair, as a college. So that was kind of what brought me to the, the Portland area. Um, I knew the executive director at the time, Tricia Sewer, through her husband, who was the assistant wheelchair rugby coach for the USA team. Um, I was a Paralympic athlete myself, and so our paths had crossed. So when I moved to Portland, I went, “Hey, you should have a goal ball program.” And they said, okay. Um, they were known mostly for their wheelchair sports, um, kind of going in. So we, you know, my background was kind of on the, the blind, visually impaired side, as well as just other ambulatory sports and wheelchair sports coming from Lake Shore Foundation in Birmingham. So I kinda made my way out here. Um, we were Oregon Disability Sports at the time. and so that’s kind of how I got my start with them. I was a volunteer. Um, I coached, I was an athlete, served on the board for a few years, became the executive director in September of 2022.��

Asher: That is quite the journey.

Jen: Yeah. It’s a little bit of a journey. Yeah.��

Asher: Yeah.��

Jen: So,��

Jen’s Journey to the Paralympics

Asher: With that, like we heard that you, you were in the Paralympics.��

Jen: Yeah.��

Asher: Can you tell us a little bit about your journey in that?��

Jen: Sure. So, I was a kid growing up, um, sighted. So, basketball was what I was supposed to kind of go to college on. That was supposed to be my career path, and things. And I lost my vision. I went legally blind at 14 and went totally blind at 17. But at 14 I was legally blind, I was left with peripheral vision outta my left eye.��

Michelle: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: And was still playing competitive basketball and it was right before my freshman year in high school, so still playing competitive basketball. Someone wrote a, a story about me playing competitive basketball, being legally blind, Armbruster is a fairly unique name. And back when phone books existed and someone looked up Armbruster, I was living in Colorado Springs at the time, called me up, said, do you wanna try this sport called goalball? It had ball in it, so me and my family were like, what the heck? Let’s do it! And so went down. Um, I didn’t go to the school for the blind, um, in Colorado, but that’s who had reached out to me and said, do you wanna try the sport? So went down there with my dad on a Saturday afternoon and got introduced to the sport at that point. My father and my mom are both avid coaching, and in different sports. And so he picked up a rule book. Um, we formed a Colorado team that summer and kinda the rest was history. The US coach happened to be at Nationals in 1990 and scouted me, and I was fortunate enough to make the, the 92 team in Barcelona for my first games.��

Miguel: Wow.

Michelle: That is so cool.��

Jen: Yeah. And then I retired after the 2016 game, so it was seven, seven time Paralympian.��

Michelle: That’s so cool. And you said goalball?��

Understanding Goalball

Jen: Goalball.��

Asher: Yeah.��

Michelle: Goalball.��

Asher: Can you explain like what goalball is?��

Michelle: Yeah. What is goalball?��

Asher: What is it?��

Jen: Of course. Um, so goal ball’s played on 9 by 18 meter court. The goals go the length of the back line, so nine meter goal. Um, it’s about 1.3 meters high. The balls about the same circumference as a men’s basketball, but it’s about three pounds of dead weight. So 1.25 kilos to be exact.��

Asher: Whoa.��

Jen: Balls have bells in it. All of our markings have string underneath, thin string, so we can fill it with our feet or our hands. Basically the ball doesn’t have air pressure the way the basketball is. You can skip it, you can bounce it, but it’s, basically it’s gotta make contact before what we call the six meter line or the high ball line, which is the equivalent of where the spike line would be for volleyball for those either visual.

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: Um, it’s gotta make contact at least once before or on that line and once before the other teams. So it’s three on three. Defense is basketball, kind of a basketball goalie. You’re gonna use your body to defend it. And then your throwing motion is more of a, a side arm or underhand, depending on your style or if you wanna spin, but that’s yes, was delivered the low on the ground, fast speed at, uh, the levels at the international levels we’re throwing around 30, 35 miles an hour.��

Michelle: Wow.��

Jen: On the women’s side, about 40, 45 on the guy side.��

Asher: Wow.��

Jen: So less than a second reaction time. And hopefully if one of y’all is doing your job right, somebody’s getting hit. Um, so you’re hitting the floor, the ball’s hitting you. Um, so reverse dodge ball, right. With a much heavier ball. So yeah.��

Asher: Oh…��

Jen: So high speed back and forth. There’s a shot clock involved as well. So you have 10 seconds from first defensive contact to gather, get any passes off and get your shot off and pass half court within 10 seconds.

Asher: So what’s, how does the score work with that if you get hit?��

Jen: it’s great. It’s awesome��

Michelle: 20 points?��

Jen: If get hit. That’s if you did your job.��

Michelle: So that’s a lot of points?��

Jen: Um, so yeah, so it’s like soccer. So you’re, the object is to, to get to the other team’s goal, right?��

Asher: Yeah.��

Jen: So you play on your end three on three.��

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: Um, and so you’re rolling it down to the other end, throwing it on the other side. And so if you miss it and it crosses that goal line into the net, then it’s gonna be a goal for the other team. So.��

Asher: Oh, wow.��

Michelle: Wow.��

Asher: That’s interesting.��

Jen: Yeah, it’s fun. There’s penalty shots if you get a penalty shot. Or if you get a penalty, you have to defend the whole court by yourself.��

Asher: It’s a penalty shot.

Jen: Yeah. So you have to, yeah. So you have to defend the whole court by yourself. So,��

Asher: Oh!��

Jen: Nine meters, almost 30 feet right? That’s a lot to, lot, lot to cover.��

Asher: Yeah.��

Jen: Um, in less than a second, so.��

Asher: Oh my goodness.��

Miguel: Did you ever have to defend the whole court by yourself?��

Jen: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Penalties happen all the time. ‘Cause again, it’s penalties if you, you know, you don’t get the ball down in time on that high ball. It’s a penalty if it doesn’t make second contact before the other teams. It’s a long ball. So high ball’s probably the one you see the most by far. You know, ’cause you’re going up there to get your full approach and might get an extra inch or two there.

Advocacy and Community Building

Asher: How does, um, adaptive Sports Northwest advocate and/or support people with disabilities? And I know you talked a little bit about it.��

Jen: Yeah. like I said, I, I, I think we’re here for the community right. As a whole.��

Asher: Yeah.��

Jen: Um, and I talked a little bit about the school systems for sure with advocating there, but also within like, local gyms and rec centers, you know, our partnerships with, you know, Portland Parks and Rec and Lake Oswego and different ones. Just trying to spread, you know, awareness in general. And then obviously the advocacy part comes in there too, especially around kids, right. And making sure that they have access to physical education and that they’re not just being thrown on the sidelines to keep score, you know, and some of those other things that you sometimes see.

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: So it’s educational around there, making sure we go to conferences that we’re, you know, in, into the, you know, the VA system, into the different hospitals around town, trying to just always educate.��

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: Um, especially around sports and recreation. ’cause I think it’s a lot, a lot easier sometimes for folks, and not that they want to maybe not make it inclusive, but they don’t know how, so they’re scared. So we try to advocate and try to educate, and just be a resource to folks to go, to go. It’s really not that scary. Um, and you know, the other big barrier is cost, right?��

Miguel: Yeah.��

Jen: Um, and things. So trying to advocate that way too, as well and, and utilizing our system. I get so upset if we have equipment not being used right. I was like, so might as well, like, hey, why not get it in kids, get it into the schools, you know, have people check it out so they can, you know, recreate with their family. We just finished you our cycling, um, program this, this summer out at PIR.��

Asher: Oh��

Jen: But hey, we have all these bikes, so, you know, check ’em out. Do the equipment loan program, you know, and continue that, that advocacy and keep and keep going. So that’s our big thing. And like I said, I think the more we’re in rec centers, the more we’re, we’re out there, we’re always educating the public and our approach is inclusive, right? So you don’t have to have a disability, just come and check it out. We have sports chairs, so if you wanna play wheelchair basketball, I don’t care if you have a disability or not, let’s play it. You know, you wanna play goalball? Awesome. Here’s a blindfold, let’s do it.��

Michelle: Yeah.��

Jen: Um, and stuff��

Asher: I would be a bit intimidated by that.��

Jen: So it’s, um, so I think that’s, you know, that’s part of my thing. I, I, I think is, it’s, it’s hard, you know, being a member of the disability community, like we are always fighting for access, I think.��

Miguel: Yes, absolutely.��

Jen: Um, all the time. And so I would think it would be hypocritical for us to be like, Hey, here’s a sport, here’s recreational, but you can’t participate, right? So we encourage families, friends, community members come and check it out right? Come and play it. It’s just a sport. We just do it in a different way. And so we have, you know, our, our, our cycling program this summer, we have over 351 riders this summer, which is awesome, you know, or over eight weeks and stuff. And we got folks on tandems, we got people on hand cycles for the first time getting on trikes and just experiencing that and, you know, and we encourage folks to bring their own bikes too, right? So families are riding together and things. So it was, it was just, it’s an awesome program and like I said, any of our, our sports programs practices, we welcome everyone to come try it out, um, or volunteer with us, come try out the sport. Just get involved with us and, and build that community. Um, some of our things, like I said, when you go to competitions, you know, for, for wheelchair basketball competition, you might have to qualify in for that.

So you might not be able to compete at the national level, but you can always come to our practices and be involved in our community.��

Asher: Oh, for sure. That’s really cool.��

Jen: Yeah.��

Asher: Once again, you’re listening to Let’s Talk ˿����Ƶs broadcast about disability culture.��

Annual Events and Tournaments

Asher: I was a little bit curious, like you have, you’ve been mentioning that there’s like a lot of different events that, uh, Adaptive Northwest does. Is there anything that happens like every year or like is there any special events that happens with you guys?��

Jen: Yeah, so we host a lot of tournaments. Um, so we just got done with like our Junior Cascade Classic, which is a goalball tournament. So we had youth from around the country coming in and we do that over the school for the blinds over in Washington. And then we have our wheelchair basketball tournament coming up in December. Sometimes it’s in November, but it’s usually sometime in the winter. Um, we have our big goalball tournament that’ll always be in February, um, as well for the adults. And we host usually a, wheelchair, um, rugby tournament of some sort too. We help with the Portland Pounders. Um, they host that. And then we also host a, you know, a track and field, competition, uh, and hopefully soon maybe our own swimming competition as well. So we host a lot of those things. Um, we have our annual get in the game fundraiser that happens every year as well. That always happens in May. Um, and things like that. So there’s always ways for people to get involved again, rather that’s, it’s volunteering, it’s coming out to scorekeep, it’s, you know, doing anything like that. And then we have our, like I said, regular practices, right. For all those different sports teams or activities, so.��

Asher: Oh yeah for sure.

Jen: Yeah.��

Asher: You guys got anything? Michelle? Miguel,��

Miguel: Do you wanna walk through listeners how they could, you know, like, go to the event? Or how does that work?��

Jen: Yeah.��

Getting Involved with Adaptive Sports Northwest

Jen: So, I mean, the best way to get involved is if you check out our website, Adaptive Sports with an S, nw.org. It has, you know, how you get involved, whether that’s as an athlete, as a volunteer, as a donor. Um, it has a list of all of our calendar events and things. And ours are drop in as far as our practices and stuff like that. So all we ask, you know, if you, if you do drop in, you’re gonna have to, you know, sign a waiver, um, and things like that. And if you want to, you can just do a membership prior to, and membership is for the entire calendar year. So you do that one time and it always has a waiver in it, which is nice. And then you just come and drop in. Rather, it’s our, it’s archery. Or you wanna check out wheelchair basketball or you wanna check out goalball, our cycling program.

Miguel: So��

Jen: fun.��

Asher: Ooh, I love archery. I haven’t played in such a long time.��

Miguel: I’ve never done archery, Jen, so it would be super fun to try.��

Jen: Oh, the Sunday.��

Michelle: Oh, Sunday.��

Asher: Where is it at?��

Jen: Um, Archers of field down in Tualatin��

Asher: Oh oh��

Jen: Yep. So��

Asher: That’s very cool.��

Michelle: And what time?��

Asher: Yeah.��

Jen: Uh, 4 to 5:30 I believe.

Miguel: I, I could, I can imagine Michelle doing goalball. That’d be so much fun.��

Michelle: It sounds really fun.��

Asher: Put on a blindfolding,��

Miguel: Get Michelle to feel��

Jen: Yeah. If you guys like the speed stuff, power soccer. Yeah. We have recreation power soccer as well as competitive power soccer. So that’s always a fun one. They have, you know, power chairs and strike force chairs for folks to try as well. So again, you don’t have to have, you know, you don’t have to be an everyday power chair user, to play the sport.��

Michelle: That’s cool. Can you explain what power chairs are?��

Asher: Yeah��

Jen: Sure, so, um, they’re electric, you know, power wheelchairs. but for the sport of power soccer, they have a guard on, on them on the front that’s a strike plate. Uh, the ball’s a little bit bigger than a traditional soccer ball played on an indoor court, and so they use the, you know, using the strike plate to, to make contact with the ball, to quote, kick it. It’s four on four. It’s fine. It’s fast paced. Um, yeah, our, our renegades are our competitive side. Um, but we have recreational as well, um, for folks just wanting to try the sport and again, just building that community.��

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: Um, it’s one of our newer sports. It came into our pro, our kind of our profile the last six or seven years. But there was a need, right. ‘Cause a lot of our, our wheelchair basketball, wheelchair rugby, some of those are our manual sports chairs. Um, but we didn’t have, you know, a sport really for, for power chair users. And so this was a kind of a, it’s a fun, great team sport, for folks to, to play, so.��

Asher: Wow.

Michelle: Yeah. I feel like that sounds pretty interesting.��

Jen: It is.��

Michelle: Yeah.��

Jen: Yeah. We’ll host a power soccer tournament as well in the spring.��

Michelle: Cool.��

Asher: Very cool.��

Miguel: Where do you guys do your track and fuel events?��

Jen: We do our practices in a couple different locations. Um, mostly at East Portland Community Center, And, uh, what is that? Floyd Light Middle School. They have that track that’s right behind there. So we do practices usually out there. And then we also have used, some different tracks on the, on the west side as well. Um, just kind of depending on what’s open mm-hmm. At that time. But Eastport Lake Community Center / Floyd Light has been our primary track. Um��

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: And then we’ve, um, held our track meet out Centennial as well. Centennial High School, so.��

Asher: That’s very cool. You mentioned like different schools and colleges and organizations.��

Partnerships and Collaborations

Asher: What are some of them that you partner that, adapt the Sports Northwest, uh, uh, partners with?

Jen: Yeah. So, like I said, with the Parks and Rec department, so, you know, east Portland Community Center, we, we host some of our, our practices and activities over there. We’re meeting with Mount Scott here shortly.��

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: As they go to reopen theirs. Um, lake Oswego. Um, rec center, um, Hillsborough Parks and Rec out, out on the we, way west side. Um, so we partner with them, but then also our community partners, right. Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connect, um, Shriners, Dorn Beckers, Rio. Um, so a lot of those as well as the VAs, um, both here in, you know, across the river in Vancouver. And then we also partner even regionally, right? With, you know, um, Seattle Adaptive Sports outta Seattle and Rainier Adaptive Sports. Just trying to make sure we can just be right. We’re always stronger together.��

Asher: Oh yeah��

Miguel: For sure.��

Jen: In silos. So we also, you know, partner up with Northwest Association Blind Athletes for some of our things. Like we had our cycling series, they were doing their, you know, they were doing their, um, the triathlon and things like that. So I was like, Hey, we have the track, you know, let your folks know, come out on Monday nights, right?��

Miguel: Yeah.��

Jen: Um, we have the tandems, we have those kind of things, so, um. So we try to partner with them, you know, that goal ball as well. We partner with them. Um, so yeah, so it’s just finding those community partners and making those connections. Um, amputee soccer. It’s not one of our sports, but we absolutely, you know, try to, to partner with them. Portland Tennis Education Center, lot of places within the community. Um, ’cause again, we always say we can’t be everything to everyone, right?��

Asher: Oh yeah.��

Jen: So we have a huge try it series as well that we try to do. So we did, you know, para and we’ve with Movement gym and we’ve done, adaptive tennis, adaptive pickleball and adaptive table tennis with um, Portland Tennis and Education Center.��

Miguel: That sounds like so much fun.��

Jen: We’re getting ready to do a, a thing for, uh, adaptive fencing. Both on the blind VI side and��

Asher: Adaptive fencing!��

Michelle: I’d be down for that.

Jen: Yeah, we’re doing adaptive golf try it thing coming up. so we’ve, we do a lot of different things through our try it series as well, ’cause again, we unfortunately, we’re a very small nonprofit, right?��

Asher: Oh yeah.��

Jen: So we already run 10 programs, which is a lot more than, you know, from ongoing. Right? Like.��

Asher: Oh yeah.��

Jen: So any, any given week, we have three to five things going on, if not more between practices.

Miguel: You go to multiple things, right, Jen?��

Jen: Yes.��

Miguel: Okay. Okay. So it’s not just like you go to this away and you can’t go to the next one. Okay.��

Jen: You listen at the time. Yeah, no. And so, yeah, so it’s, so we’re busy.��

Miguel: Yeah.��

Jen: Um, for a 10, but the Try it series, we try to do one every other month. and we’re just setting those up. They’ll start, you know, in January again, but like I said, we’ll do golf. I, I know we have golf on the agenda. Fencing. Climbing. I’m not sure what adaptive pinball is, but we’re about to learn about it��

Asher: Pinball?��

Jen: So yeah.��

Asher: Retro pinball!��

Jen: So yeah.��

Michelle: That would be interesting.

Jen: So we’re meeting somebody with adaptive pinball. Um, so that’ll probably be one of our Tri it events coming up too, so yeah. So it’s just making those connections with the community, right.��

Asher: Yeah.��

Jen: Um, because I think, again, people want it.��

Miguel: Yeah.��

Jen: And they wanna be able to understand it, and they’re like, hey, I have this, how do I make it work for everyone? And things, so that’s where we, like I said, we could kind of come in and go, cool. They, they’re like, we want this, this, this, and this. This is my place. How can I, how can I make that adaptive? How can I make it inclusive? How do we get folks? Um, we do a lot with a, a safe scuba.��

Asher: Oh��

Jen: As well, so we do a Try it event, um, outta scuba as well each year. Um, so that’ll be another one that’s on our, our list next year.��

Asher: Wait, scuba as in scuba diving?��

Jen: Uhhuh, uh, scuba.��

Asher: Yo, I wanna do scuba diving.��

Jen: There you go. Yeah. So yeah, we do that usually, usually it’s in August, so, I mean, we don’t have the, the dates for sure, but that’s usually when we do it.��

Asher: Love to do scuba diving, but I feel like it, we’ll be just too cold right now.

Jen: Yeah, yeah.��

Asher: Yeah. No, this is perfect for you. Like, Miguel, you do dragon boating too with, um, NW. Um,��

Michelle: Yeah, NWABA.��

Asher: NWABA. Oh my goodness. Yeah. NWABA. Yeah. Uh. have, have you heard of, um, Adaptive Sports in Northwest before Miguel, or?��

Miguel: Yeah, I have. I met Jen in the past.

Asher: Oh.��

Miguel: Um, but, you know, I need, I need to get more involved.��

Asher: I did not make that connection. Okay. That’s very cool.��

Miguel: What is something, Jen, that you want to, like, what’s a sport that you want, you’re like, man, we should really have this. Like, do you think we should have like a, I don’t know, like a beat baseball team Portland or like a bowling team that.

Asher: Bowling team?

Jen: Well, so it’s interesting you talked about, so I was gonna say baseball, not necessarily beat baseball for sure. Maybe that one too, but.��

Michelle: Yeah.��

Jen: Um. The Miracle League. So we’re working with Easterseals too. They’re trying to get a Miracle League field.��

Michelle: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: Um, here, you know, and so that would be kind of cool. It’s one of the ones when we do a, a survey and stuff like that, baseball, softball has been a, a popular one. That’s why we do pickleball now. It all came from a survey, so everybody pickleball nuts, right? Everybody’s all about the pickleball.��

Asher: Oh yeah. Oh gosh.

Michelle: That’s great.��

Jen: And so that’s what we added, uh, about a year and a half ago, two years ago, um, with the new grant. So, um, so that’s, that was our newest sport that we added. You asked about kayaking before, we kind of kicked that off of our repertoire and put in pickleball, um, and stuff. ’cause again, we work with a lot of folks in the area, right. So adventures got limits and leap and, and those type things to, they already have Adaptive, um, things and, and they do it well on the outdoors. So��

Asher: yes.��

Jen: Um, that’s where we, what we do with advocacy. So I think part of that too is also with the referral piece, right?��

Asher: Yeah.��

Miguel: Yeah.��

Jen: On what makes sense, what are you into? Awesome. And let’s connect you to where that makes the most sense, if that’s what you’re into. Like I said before, we had, you know, we’re, we’re doing a Try it thing with the fencing thing, but even before that, or with Portland Tennis Education Center, we knew wheelchair tennis was happening already over there. So we used those resources to kinda go, oh, you’re into that. Awesome. Here’s who you need to contact.

Asher: Oh, yeah, for sure.��

Jen: And just trying to get people in the right spots. So, you know, if people are kayaking, we’re like, “Hey, Adventures without limits is right here in town.” That’s who, who kind of handles more of the outdoor stuff, or you’re in the Bend area, awesome. Oregon Adaptive Sports is down there, right?

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: And if you want snow skiing and those things, so, so, yeah. So it’s just using those different resources and letting folks know, you know, what else is out there. And so again, I’m all about the partnerships and community building versus trying to be in a silo and, yeah. It’s not a competition, right?

Asher: No.��

Jen: We’re always, we’re always gonna be better at collaborating, so.��

Miguel: Yeah.��

Asher: Yeah. yeah. I think we, um, we did interview, um, Adventures Without Limits recently.��

Jen: Yeah.��

Asher: Which was really fun.��

Jen: Awesome.��

Asher: Yeah.��

Jen: Yeah.��

Encouraging Participation and Overcoming Barriers

Asher: I was gonna say, just like with trying out new things, I feel like the first thing, at least for me, and I speak for myself, is that it’s so difficult to figure out what to start with because I wanna go out and I want to be more active but, at the same time, I’m like, oh, I wanna do it with people. But at the same time,��

Miguel: Yeah��

Asher: the, like, I don’t, I don’t know how to feel about doing it with strangers, but I also wanna like, meet new people. Like,��

Michelle: Yeah.��

Jen: Yeah.��

Asher: Is there, like, I don’t know, is there like a way to encourage people who are also just going through like difficulties like that who are wanting to go out and do new things, but are just afraid of reaching out.

Miguel: Yeah.��

Jen: So a lot of, again, I would encourage the, the, the website, um, and then contacting us, right? Rather, that’s through our programs at Adaptive Sports and w.org or calling us, you know, on the phone numbers that are listed. Um, mines, you know, 5032410850. We’re all willing to kind of talk through, whether through email or, or through the phone call, kind of talking about what is it, your interest is what makes sense, and it might be that soft handoff to having that talk with a coach or a volunteer, right?��

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: And doing those kind of things too. Like, “Hey, maybe I’m interested in archery.” You know, okay, let me put you in, in contact with Matt, our program guy who runs archery, right? Um, and things like that so you can kind of know what to expect before you get there. And again, we also encourage folks too to just come check it out. We’re not, you don’t have to try wheelchair basketball, but if you wanna come check it out, come check it out. Right? And, and then maybe that’s where you can talk and you can ask those questions and, and not feel obligated, like, oh my gosh, I have to know how to play wheelchair basketball to do that. No. Or, I have to know how to play goalball. Nah, just come to our practices, right?��

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: There’s enough folks that are gonna be able to talk with you and, and do more of the one-on-one if you need that, um, either prior to or, you know, at, at a practice or at a program, so.��

Asher: Yeah. Cool. Um, do you have a favorite sport? And I, I bet you have a favorite sport. You play so many different kinds of sports, but what’s your, like, absolute favorite that you like to play?��

Jen: That’s a tough one. Um, ’cause like I said, my go-to’s always basketball, right? I love and always have loved basketball.��

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: Um, and so my, passion, goalball obviously is way up there as well. Um, it’s been, you know, part of my life for 30 years, but, I don’t know. I, that changes, I think on. And then are you talking, watching or playing?��

Asher: Um.��

Jen: Right, because it’s football season right now, so go Eagles. Right. So, um, so that would be my thing. Um,��

Asher: Watching it would be?��

Jen: Oh yeah, football.��

Asher: Oh, okay. And what, uh, what about playing it?

Jen: Playing it, that’s what I’m saying. It’s tough, right?��

Asher: Yeah. No.��

Jen: Um, and right now, like I, I’m training for Ironman. I still don’t love running or swimming. Um, but I do, I love, I love the. Methodical nature of training for it though.��

Asher: Yeah.��

Jen: And it’s ’cause it’s three different disciplines. It’s fun ’cause it’s not, it’s a different, it’s different workouts all the time, right?

Asher: Yeah.��

Jen: Um, and stuff. But I don’t know, like I said, goalball’s still probably up there for, for my favorite to to kind of play and, and play coach and just be involved with for sure, so.��

Asher: Yeah.��

Miguel: When do you have your Ironman?��

Ironman Journey and Training Plans

Asher: Yeah,��

Jen: October 18th. So I had to defer. I was supposed to actually do my Ironman last month. Um, but I had to defer till next year ’cause of medical, so, yeah. So October 18th though, 2026.��

Asher: Cool.��

Miguel: We’ll be cheering you on.��

Jen: There you go.��

Miguel: Cheering you on, you know.��

Jen: Thanks.��

Asher: Yeah!��

Jen: Yeah. And I’ll probably do the, I did the 70.3, um, just over a year ago, and so I’ll probably do that again down in Salem as a warmup so.��

Asher: That’s very cool.��

Jen: That’s a fun one.��

Discussing Ironman Distances

Michelle: And what are the distances for Iron Man?��

Asher: Yeah?��

Jen: For the full Ironman?��

Michelle: Yeah.��

Jen: Uh, 2.4 Mile swim. Then followed by 112 mile bike and then a full marathon. So 26.0��

Michelle: My gosh. Like I love running, but not that much.��

Jen: Yeah.��

Asher: That’s a lot of running.��

Michelle: It is a lot of running.��

Jen: Yeah.

Michelle: Okay.��

Miguel: Maybe one day when I’m in really good shape.��

Michelle: Oh my gosh. At two miles of swimming too.��

Jen: 2.4! Don’t short the point four.��

Michelle: 2.4.��

Asher: Yeah. Once again, you’re listening to Let’s Talk ˿����Ƶ’s broadcast about disability culture.��

Favorite Sports and Personal Experiences

Asher: Um, what’s your favorite sport Michelle? Oh my goodness. I was looking, I was looking at Michelle and I was gonna say Miguel, I’m sorry.��

Michelle: Our names have a, very similar ring to it.��

Asher: You both start with M.��

Michelle: Yes��

Asher: and I.��

Michelle: Yes. And we have that. Yes. That, that melody.��

Asher: What is your favorite sport if you have one?��

Michelle: Oh gosh. Track and field. Hands down.

Asher: Track and field.��

Michelle: Yeah.

Asher: Oh yeah.��

Michelle: I love it. It’s just like the variety of it too.��

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Michelle: Yeah.��

Asher: That’s very cool. And have you done a lot of track and field in the past before?

Michelle: Oh yes.��

Miguel: I did too, by the way.��

Michelle: High school.��

Miguel: High school. I did too. I did it in high school. Yeah.��

Michelle: Fun.��

Asher: What’s your favorite, uh, Miguel? And it can’t be dragon boating because we already know that you do dragon boating.��

Miguel: My favorite. Uh, that’s a really hard one. Um, favorite sport.

Asher: We can come back to you. If you want.

Miguel: You know, I would say maybe I really like swimming. I think I would love to be on a swimming team. That would be fun. Yeah.��

Asher: Swimming team.��

Miguel: Yeah.��

Asher: Yeah.��

Miguel: I think that would be super fun.��

Jen: All right. If the swimming happens on Sunday afternoons? Hey, there you go.

Asher: Wait, do you, do you do dragon boating on the weekends, Miguel? Or?��

Miguel: Um, right now practices have been canceled. I don’t know why people don’t want to go out in the rain.��

Asher: Oh, of course.��

Jen: Beyond the water, but not get hit by water.��

Michelle: Yeah, there, there’s wind right now too, so that can probably be a part of it too.��

Miguel: Yeah that’s probably what it is. But it’s,��

Exploring Unique Sports

Michelle: I feel like they’re like, so one of the interesting sports that I’ve heard about is like, I think it’s like cross country skiing.��

Asher: Ohhhhhh..��

Michelle: But then like, they have targets, they have to shoot��

Jen: Biathlon.��

Michelle: That’s what it’s called?��

Jen: Yes.��

Michelle: A biathlon.��

Jen: Yes.��

Michelle: Yeah.��

Asher: Fine.��

Jen: It’s cross country skiing. And then you shoot,��

Asher: That’s so, that sounds so extreme. What if you hit something else?

Michelle: I know right?��

Jen: But, okay. Will you stop, it’s a range.��

Asher: Oh, okay.��

Jen: So you get done and then you flip your rifle ’cause they have it. Um, it’s a Paralympic sport as well.��

Michelle: Oh, okay. I thought it was like you’re just kind of skiing around and then they’re like, here’s a flying target.��

Asher: Yeah. No, I was thinking that too.

Jen: You ski into the thing and then you, yeah, and then you shoot standing.

Asher: So you’re not, you’re not skiing and shooting at the same time.��

Jen: No.��

Asher: That would take some skill.��

Jen: That would actually be very��

Asher: Very skilled.��

Jen: Yeah. It’s the whole, I mean, right. The, the challenge of that is right, ’cause you’re getting your cardio up, right?

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: Because you’re, it’s miles of cross country skiing, then you have to stop and be able to steady enough to shoot��

Oh,��

While breathing.��

Asher: Wow.��

Jen: Right. So it’s all control.��

Asher: That’s very cool. Yeah.��

Jen: Yeah. It’s a Paralympic sport. Winter Paralympic sport. So, um, and it’s both seated, um, ambulatory and VI categories.

Asher: Oh wow.��

Jen: So.��

Asher: Mm-hmm. I think at least a sport for myself. And, I played volleyball when I was in high school.��

Jen: Yeah?��

Asher: I think because it was just the stereotype for my entire class. All the girls played volleyball, all the guys played soccer, and I was just like, all right, whatever. I’ll just play some volleyball.

Jen: Yep.��

Asher: And was not good at it at all. I would injure myself so much trying to save those shots.��

Jen: Do you wanna try sit volleyball?��

Asher: Do what volleyball?��

Jen: We have sit volleyball.��

Asher: Sit volleyball?.��

Jen: That’ll start up in January.��

Asher: What’s sit volleyball?��

Jen: It’s, so it’s played on a smaller court.��

Asher: Okay.��

Jen: But you’re seated. Um, the net’s lower. And basically when you make contact with the ball, the rules are the same except for when you make contact with the ball. Your buttock / hip region has to be in contact with the floor.��

Asher: Oh.��

Jen: While you make contact with the ball.��

Miguel: Oh, wow. That does a strong core with that.��

Michelle: Yeah, I know.��

Asher: How do you?��

Michelle: Can you move around?��

Jen: Yeah, you can move around.��

Asher: On your butt? You just shuffle around?��

Jen: It’s a whole art, but if you come out to sit volleyball, we can show you.��

Michelle: Cool.��

Jen: We can show you techniques.��

Asher: Okay.��

Michelle: Wow. I feel like we need to go and like look at all those sports��

Jen: Yeah.��

Michelle: Sports and then come back for a follow up.

Jen: There you go.��

Asher: Yeah, no, exactly. And be like.��

Miguel: That would take.��

Michelle: Take a little tour��

Jen: Would be��

Michelle: of all the sports there��

Miguel: Yeah. We can do like a mini series of like us trying everything out and be like, okay, what do you guys think of all these?��

Asher: Asher Michelle and Miguel tries Adaptive Sports .��

Miguel: That can be a fight.

Michelle: Yeah.��

Miguel: And, and since Kayla, her boss, loves the snippets of like different audio.��

Michelle: We become like PCC Try Guys.��

Asher: Oh yes. The PCC Try guys��

Michelle: Oh my god.��

Asher: Except it’s Accessibility Tries.��

Michelle: Try guys.��

Miguel: Try guys.��

Asher: Accessibility Tries Guys, TM��

Michelle: We could say something. Yeah��

Miguel: That would be super cool.��

Adaptive Sports Success Stories

Asher: Jen, do you have any success stories as far as like working with Adaptive Sports Northwest? Like if you’ve seen any person that’s come in and it’s like, I’m not sure what to try, and then they tried out something. It was like really loved it.��

Jen: There’s a lot of ’em right? So where do we start?��

Asher: What’s your favorite? Yeah.��

Jen: Maybe I’ll start some more recent one. I think… One of the one is the kids are always gonna be a, a thing for me right. I mean, it’s just so, to watch them, you know, to go, “Hey, can, can I get a, can I have a sports chair for, for my PE class?”��

Michelle: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: And to have them come back and go, go from, so he was doing a focus group for me, and he was so, he’s like, “PE sucks”. That was his thing, right? He’s like, it stinks. I said, and I’m like, okay. You know, 14-year-old kid, you know? And he is like, they just, they don’t know what to do. They just have me go outside and, you know, push in my chair.��

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: My everyday chair, but I wanna play. And then, but credit to his adapted Phys Ed class, his school, they’re like, they came to us and went, okay he says, you have these sports chairs. How do we get one? And stuff. So we, we worked with the schools to do that and then I saw him like three months later and he went from the kid, they, they didn’t want him In PE right? His, he’s like, they never wanted me on the team.��

Asher: Mm.��

Jen: They didn’t want whatever. He goes, I’m the coolest kid now in school, in my PE class. Like he’s, ’cause we gave him not one but two sports chairs. So he would be in a sports chair, but then somebody on the other team would be in a sports chair as well.��

Asher: Oh.��

Jen: And there’s a big fight over who gets to be in the cool sports chair. They’re fast, they’re agile, they’re, you know, and stuff like that. So to see this kid that’s like, I hate PE too, this is the coolest thing ever. ’cause he is a sporty guy. Like he loves sports, loves being active and going, I can fully participate. You know, and he went from a middle school that was in a middle school and now he’s in the high school.��

Miguel: Yeah.��

Jen: And his high school stepped up this year too and said the same thing. They’re like, we want it. What do we need to do? Let’s, let’s get it. Um, so I think that’s one of the cooler ones. And then I think one of the other more recent ones too is, you know, new newly injured, spinal cord injury athlete that, had, you know, played standing basketball and we introduced them to wheelchair basketball for the first time, which was cool. Not knowing, watching the sport and having basketball back in their life. But to me, like the bigger stuff to watch through that year was someone traveling for the first time.��

Miguel: Oh wow.��

Asher: Oh wow.��

Jen: Right? Had never been on a plane, sensor injury type thing and watching their growth or the first time they got into, you know, a different vehicle. ‘Cause again, life is not this perfectly adaptive, accessible place, right?��

Asher: No.��

Jen: Um, but traveling with sports and stuff like you, you know, elevators go down, right?��

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: Things happen and things. And so to watch this individual just, start problem solving that through, not just on her own, but with her teammates that have lived that experience too, right? Like, oh, this is how I transfer to a really big Toyota Tundra, you know?��

Asher: Wow.��

Jen: And things. Or this is what I need, or how do, what assistance do I need? Or what can I do on my own? Or how do I build that up? And things are, hey, this transfer board really works really well for me. Or this is, you know, the first time we were transferring was like, how do I get into a big sprinter van?

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: How do I do that? And things, so just watching those things that happen off the court to me, are as important, if not more important than what happens on the court. You know, same thing for kids, right? Like, we’re a stickler for, for our kids. We don’t make parents go, right?��

Miguel: Oh, you don’t.��

Jen: Oh, absolutely not, right? Because in what other year 12, year 15 travel team, you don’t, your parents don’t have to go right and stuff. So we’re very committed to making sure that it’s. It is on them so they can have that experience of being a kid.��

Miguel: Yeah.��

Jen: Right. Traveling in in a van. Traveling in a bus with their, with their teammates. Having the, the hotel experience, right?��

Miguel: Yeah.��

Jen: But also the experience of guess what? Laundry needs to get done. You need to get it done. You know, you know. Or different things like they’re, all the things that they learn off the court to me are as valuable, if not more valuable than the X’s and O’s are.

Asher: Oh, yeah.��

Jen: On the court. Um, and so our, you know, our volunteers and, and our coaches that, that work with youth and, or even with our adults and different things, they know it, they get it. They come from that part of it, on where do you step in, how do you get them to advocate for themselves, and then just watch ’em getting stronger and stronger. Right? I mean, I just got back from a, a wheelchair basketball trip a couple weeks ago with this individual and just watching them transfer to the car, I’m like, wow, you’re getting totally way stronger. And they’re like, oh yeah! You know, where a year ago before it was, what do I do? You know?��

Asher: Oh yeah.��

Jen: Um, and it’s just that to watch them, you know, transfer into a 15 passenger on their own and doing those kind of things as they get stronger, more confident in what they’re doing, or traveling, you know, they travel for the first time with their injury with us on a, on a basketball trip.

Asher: Oh, wow.��

Jen: And then to be able to send them to a camp on their own, like to, to negotiate traveling all by themselves, you know. They were like, it’s not something I thought was in my future. So those to me are the cooler stories, right.

Asher: I love that.��

Jen: And watching that happen.��

Asher: Yeah.��

Jen: So.��

Michelle: That’s very cool.��

Jen: Yeah.

Michelle: Wow.��

Asher: Yeah. sorry, I’m looking through my list. I’m like, what other the questions have I not asked you yet?��

History of Adaptive Sports

Asher: How did Adaptive Sports start? I would say is my question. Yeah.��

Jen: You mean our organization? I assume not the.��

Asher: Yeah. How did.��

Jen: I was like, do you want, like do you want the history of?��

Asher: The whole history?��

Jen: I would say, yeah.

Asher: If you can tell me the whole history, that’ll be great too.��

Jen: I can tell you the history of the Paralympics.��

Asher: Yes.��

Jen: So it started, um, after World War II, right? You had a lot of injured soldiers coming back. And so the Madoff Games, they started that with kind of wheelchair sports, different things. And then 1960 were the first Paralympic Games.

Michelle: Wow.��

Jen: Um, in Rome. That’s where the, where it started really was, was injured military folks coming back. So that’s how the kind of Paralympics started and really about adaptive sports really, was, you know, injured folks coming back from war and going, hey, you know, sports is such a big culture in, in the military and so you had all these soldiers returning with injuries and different things going, oh, I still want to shoot archery, I still wanna play basketball! I still wanna do X, Y, or Z. So that’s kind of where that, you know, you know, the Paralympic Games grew from the Manfield games down in England, back in 19, now I gotta really test my history, 40 something. I think were the first Mansfield games.��

Asher: 1940. Wow.��

Jen: Um, 40 something. I don’t remember the exact, but yeah, 49 maybe? It’s on my test in the class that I teach at Portland State. Actually, it’s an extra credit question. So they had to.��

Asher: You did it.��

Jen: Exactly. It’s an extra credit question, but as far as Adaptive Sports Northwest, um, been around since 1982.

Asher: Wow.��

Jen: I think about three different name changes. Um, again, kind of started from a wheelchair sports, um, perspective and kind of concentrating on, on basketball was, was kind of the, the, the main sport at that time.��

Asher: Mm.��

Jen: It’s grown and grown and grown. Um, like I said, I came and I moved to Portland in 2010.��

Asher: Oh, okay.

Jen: Um, and things, and since then, you know, with being part of the organization, like I said, it was Oregon Disability Sports when I came to it. And then it was, you know, Adaptive Sports Northwest now.��

Asher: Mm.��

Jen: But even since I’ve came in 2010, we’ve probably almost doubled our offerings.��

Asher: Wow.��

Michelle: Wow.��

Jen: Um, because we, you know, we added power soccer, we added goalball, um, track and field, uh, pickleball��

Asher: mm-hmm.

Jen: And sit volleyball. So yeah. So we’ve definitely doubled and kind of before it was kind of wheelchair basketball, rugby, were kind of the two main sports that you, that you kinda saw little bit of folks with, and cycling, were kind of our three main sports, um, when I first got here. And they were kind of dabbling into the other things and different stuff. ‘Cause again, it was even a smaller organization than what we are now. And we’re still, if you add us all up, we’re still under three, part-time. I mean, sorry, three full-time staff if you add everybody up, and things like that. So we do a lot.��

Asher: Yeah.��

Jen: With very little, which is why we, you know, we, we absolutely depend on volunteers, donations, grants and, and those type things.��

Asher: I bet��

Jen: To be able to operate. Um, ‘ cause we, I think I, our impact report’s almost done, we had almost a thousand folks with disabilities that we contacted last year. 1000. Wow. Just under that, you know, between coaches, athletes. and different things that were, that were there. And that’s not kind of like the bigger impact, right?

Asher: Strong, but.��

Jen: When you start talking about the other impact that you have around families and��

Miguel: Yes.��

Jen: And things like that and, and just the, the general public, it’d be a lot higher. But, yeah, 900 plus individuals for sure that we, that we tapped into, you know, between competitions, practices, everything.

Asher: Cool. So.��

Community Impact and Family Involvement

Miguel: And Jen, how do the fa, like, what, what are your experiences like with the family seeing their loved ones, like grow and love of sports or like their love of like, learning new things? Have you seen any changes in that?��

Jen: Oh, absolutely. I mean, like I said, I, I go back to our cycling series, right?

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: Like, they’re like, we get a bike as a family��

Asher: mm-hmm.��

Jen: In a safe environment. Right. We have a two mile track��

Michelle: Yeah.��

Jen: That’s paved and nice and we’re not having to worry about anything else. And ‘ cause like I said, maybe your, your kid or your spouse, or your friend or your partner is their first time on an adaptive, right? They maybe they haven’t biked since their injury��

Asher: mm-hmm.��

Jen: Or they’ve just never been exposed to a bike. Maybe they were born with a disability, but they’ve never been able to bike, right? And so to, to watch them go, whoa, there is a bike. Oh, I can do this. And, and how do we, how do we go from there? You know? Right. They said that’s checking one out so they can go on other biking adventures with their families. Or like I said, even playing with their kids, right? Mm-hmm. Like knowing that I, I, we have our youth wheelchair basketball, but we have enough chairs there too. A couple of bigger ones too that, you know, to watch parents get in it or sibling.

Michelle: Yeah.��

Jen: And go. I get to play with, with my brother or my sister. Right.��

Michelle: Sweet.��

Jen: Because that’s, that’s something that they’ve been able to experience before. So that absolutely has been fun to watch. And like I said, that’s what we encourage, right?��

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: Is those, to have that experience. Right? So not every, I mean, I, I can’t get my kid out of a wheelchair basketball if he’s at a tournament. He loves playing wheelchair basketball. He doesn’t like stand. I could not get him to love basketball. And I love the sport, but he loves wheelchair basketball. Absolutely adores it and loves playing it. And I don’t know, it’s ’cause he’s not quite tall yet, so he is like sweet, everybody’s playing seated. I don’t know. I don’t really know. But he loves and he loves the chairs, he loves the speed of the chairs, the agility of the chairs, um, and things like that. And, and so, but to watch, I mean, that’s the last practice I was at, you know, with, with the, with the youth kids. It was fun to just watch. I think we had two different siblings that jumped into it and I think a dad jumped in and wanted to play too and stuff like that. ’cause he is like, I get to shoot hoops with my kid.��

Asher: Aw.��

Jen: And stuff. So you know, or we were at a Tri it thing, or it wasn’t even a Try it thing, it was a community thing, um, for when the announcement of the, the fire.��

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: Well, before the fire was announced, we just knew we were getting A WNBA team. Um, but we were set at the Blazers thing and, it was actually one of our board members. Um, and her partner, son has a disability and Ambulatory Cp, but we had our wheelchair, kind of a pop shot type thing going on with our little, little hoop.

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: And he got in a chair for the first time and he was so much more agile, right?��

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: And loved it where he’s played, um, special Olympics basketball standing, but his balance is a little bit questionable, you know, and different things. But he loves wheelchair basketball, right? And so those are the things, and to, to watch his dad go. Oh my gosh. Like, why didn’t we do this years ago? We know about you guys. Like we, but we just had, hadn’t thought or made that connection of doing that. Like we have a lot of folks with, you know, with amateur that might use walkers or different things that aren’t everyday chair users. But again, trying to do a, a sport with their walker or different things might not be it, but now they’ve introduced to a sports chair and they’re like, oh, I don’t have to worry about my balance. I don’t have to worry about this and I can, I can play basketball and I can play pickleball and I can I can play all these different sports that, that I didn’t know I could. and things rather that’s in the PE setting or that’s even with their family, so.��

Asher: Oh yeah.��

Jen: It’s definitely, yeah, it’s a huge impact. Um, and I think I, I always go back to, I think that’s the cooler stuff than, than our X’s and O’s sometimes.��

Miguel: Yeah.��

Michelle: For sure.��

Asher: Yeah.��

Michelle: For sure.��

Jen: From the impact.��

Asher: Yeah. No, definitely. .��

Challenges and Accessibility in Gyms

Miguel: And Jen, what do you think of like, I know for me, I’ve always struggled with like going to gyms because people see my cane and they’re like scared and they don’t want to gimme like a membership. And I’m like, I just want to use the treadmill or use, you know, like the equipment or go to a water aerobics or, you know, like those types of things. Like have you guys partnered with any gyms in the area? Like?��

Jen: We, we have, we have not formally partnered. We have partnered though with plenty of gyms in the area. And a lot of that is from our members, right. Going, Hey, I have this 24 hour fitness, or I have this, whatever I have, whatever gym, whatever X gym��

Miguel: Yeah.��

Jen: And stuff like that. And I have this disability. This is what I’d like, how, how do I make it happen?��

Asher: Mm-hmm.��

Jen: Um, and things. And so I think that’s. Yeah. So we’ve came in again, to, to kind of help places kind of with the educational part of that, or again, trying to get our folks to also advocate for themselves too on what they need and how, education is exhausting though.

Miguel: Yes.��

Asher: Yeah I know.��

Jen: Right. It absolutely gets exhausting. And so, you know, that’s one of our big partners too. East Portland Community Center is one of our, our big partners and things like that. And their gym is accessible. Like it’s, it’s a totally cool place. And a lot of perks, you know, a lot of the rec centers obviously are going to that. Hillsborough, Hidden Creek out in Hillsborough, um, is fully accessible. so I think that’s also, again, just like driving folks to other places is going, Hey, do you know these other resources already exist?��

Miguel: Yeah.��

Jen: Right. So maybe if you don’t wanna go to commercial gym A��

Miguel: Yeah.��

Jen: Like, have you thought about Portland Community Centers?

Miguel: Yeah.��

Jen: And where do you live at and how do we get you in there? You know, or rather that’s Tualatin hills, or there’s different places that��

Miguel: Yeah.��

Jen: That we, that we can access, and things like that. So we definitely have done that. Or I mean, we’ve even done it for like apartment complexes, right? Like, I have my apartment complex and I want this treadmill and I want it to be accessible, but it’s not what I need to do. I’m like Scotch tape and toothpicks. It’s awesome.��

Miguel: Yeah.��

Jen: Right. And stuff. I’m not asking you to make everything braille and do all that kind of stuff, but I can make an up arrow and a down arrow and a quick start. Really easy.��

Miguel: Yeah. And a stop light. Yeah.��

Jen: Correct. Because that’s what everybody worries about right? Sometimes is how the cost of things, right? Oh, yeah. And things. And I’m like, there’s, I always call it cheap and easy, right? There’s a lot of ways to make it cheap and easy, and a lot of it is around education and just making folks. Again, I think they, they wanna do it, they just don’t know how and they’re scared.

Asher: Yeah.��

Jen: So their go-to is just like, no.��

Asher: Yeah, no,��

Jen: Because they’re scared, so.��

Asher: Yeah. No.��

Miguel: Well, now I know that the East Community Center is accessible I might be checking it out soon.��

Jen: Yes, it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s fun. That’s where my primary training site for my Ironman stuff, but it’s also our office is right across the street, so it’s helpful.

Miguel: Cool. I can start practicing for my triathlon. I gotta beat somebody by 40 minutes next year, so.��

Asher: 40 minutes.��

Miguel: Yes.

Asher: Cool.��

Encouragement and Closing Statements

Asher: Well we’re getting to the end of our time soon, but do we, any of us have any like closing statements? Especially you, Jen, is there anything you wanna tell our audience as far as like encouraging them to either volunteer or come check out the sports events going on at Adaptive?��

Jen: I think that would be my thing is, yeah, check out our website, um, or follow us on Facebook and Instagram.

Asher: Hey.��

Jen: We had our first viral go the other day on Instagram. Over 3 million.��

Miguel: Wow.��

Asher: Three Million?��

Jen: It was.��

Miguel: Congratulations.��

Asher: User likes!��

Jen: We didn’t really know what to do. We’re like, what do we do? and things. So, but yeah, so yeah, I follow us on Instagram. Facebook would be great. And like I said, it’s, you know, check out our website, see how you can get involved, whether that’s, again, wanting to check out as an athlete, you wanna check out as a volunteer, or you just wanna come check out because Adaptive Sports is awesome. Just yeah, check out what we do, and see how you can get involved.��

Asher: Very cool. Well, Miguel, you wanna close us off with our closing statement, our outro.��

Miguel: Thank for listening to Let’s Talk. ˿����Ƶ’s Broadcast is about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at . You can also find listed resources on today’s episode page hosted on KBOO FM. Search for Let’s Talk. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk Podcast. Collective is a collaborative effort between students, the accessible education and disability resource department, the PCC Multimedia Department and KBOO. We post newly recorded content biweekly on our home web web page. Again, that’s , and we hope you always tune into our shows here on every first and third Friday of the month at 11:00 AM.

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Miri Newman

Introductions

Kylo: You are listening to Let’s Talk! Let’s Talk! is a digital space for students at PCC experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ˿����Ƶ, PCC Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and

Asher: Hello, Let’s Talk! listeners. Welcome back. My name is Asher, and today I have another special guest joining us. Her name is Leah Blankenship, and– actually, would you like to introduce yourself, your name, pronouns, and what you do?��

Leah: Sure, yeah. I am Leah. I use any pronouns. I am a Ph.D candidate at the . I’m a PCC graduate myself. I am also the founder and co-president of the at UO, as well as the founder of a new group called Neurodiversity Innovation Centers for Excellence in Neuroscience.

Why Neuroscience?

Asher: Thank you so much, Leah, for joining us today. I really appreciate you. What got you interested in studying neuroscience, and, more specifically, the lesser known but powerful parts of the brain? I’m really interested in hearing about that.��

Leah: Yeah, so I feel like I’ve kind of always been interested in biology and science in general. But I got interested in neuroscience more specifically when I was in middle school. My little brother is adopted from foster care in Oregon and has a lot of learning disabilities, due to fetal substance exposure, and I wanted to kind of learn and understand how his brain worked so that I could help him be successful in school. That kind of got me really interested in neuroscience and neurodiversity, even before I found out that I myself am autistic and neurodivergent. And I’m interested in small subcortical brain regions because I think those regions tend to be overlooked for the important role that they have in behavior. People tend to focus a lot on the regions that are the most different between humans and other animals. But I think that the more conserved brain regions, um, are super powerful for behavior across many animals.��

Asher: Oh, that’s really cool, yeah. What kind of, if you don’t mind me asking, and you don’t have to answer this, what kind of disabilities did your brother have that make you look into this?

Leah: Yeah. He, like I said, has like fetal substance exposure, so it can be hard to diagnose that as a particular disability. But the result for that for him was, I think it’s now called, r, which is kind of an umbrella term that includes, um, dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, a lot of those kinds of famous learning disabilities. and ADHD..��

Asher: Thanks for sharing that with me. Yeah. I myself also was recently diagnosed with ADHD and I’m learning so much just about the different kinds of mental disabilities. I mean, even before I found out that I had ADHD, for the job that I’m doing right now. It’s just like learning a lot of things about disabilities, what kind of disabilities there are, and just how it impacts us in our day to day.

Leah: Yeah, definitely.

Studying the Habenula

Asher: So yeah, just with your doctorate work that focuses on the small but powerful brain region called the new, I’m probably, uh, butchering this and you can correct me. Hab… nula? Habnulla?��

Leah: .��

Asher: .��

Leah: Yeah.��

Asher: Yeah, tell us more about it and what is it and what does it control?��

Leah: Yeah, so the habenula as a whole tends to be stereotyped as responding to aversive stimuli. And basically what I mean by that is it tends to become more active during stress, or just during things that an animal might want to avoid. Then it activates, or inhibits other parts of the brain that might affect things like learning and motivation, right? But my lab focuses on the fact that individual cells within the habenula, which express different genes, individually play a role in different behaviors rather than the whole brain region doing one thing. So these cells that I’m personally studying in my own, work. play a role in aggressive behavior and might also play a role in opioid use and withdrawal.��

Asher: Wow. That’s, that’s a very big thing. I have so many questions now.��

Leah: Yeah.��

Asher: Yeah. How is it different for each person then, in this case? Is it the different chemicals in the brain? Or each of our brains and stuff like that?��

Leah: Yeah, so that’s a good question. My lab works in mice, which are genetically identical, so they’re quite similar across different brain regions and stuff like that. We’re trying to kind of understand like how the system works on a basic level, so that future researchers can look more into that in people. But it’s interesting to ask that about like how it works in different people, because That kind of speaks to why we use mouse models a little bit. ’cause in human neuroscience it’s pretty limited in how deep you can get into the brain because of what techniques you can use on like a human versus a mouse, right? And so, what we do know though is from, you know, like FMRI studies and some other like clinical work, that some people might have like more or less activity in their habenula depending on their genes that they express as well as their development.��

Asher: What is FMRI? And you talked a little bit briefly on that is the, what’s the long term for it?

Leah: Yeah, so that’s . So a lot of people might have heard of just MRI before, like as a imaging technology. but FMRI has to do more with like tracking how the blood flow in different brain regions changes when a person is experiencing different things, or thinking about different things. That’s one of the main techniques that’s used in human neuroscience, but in mice we can do a lot more specific things to investigate the circuit that you couldn’t do in a, in a human. So.��

Asher: That’s really cool. How is it different with someone who is on the spectrum, whether it’s with ADHD, and autism and all that?

Leah: Yeah. So, we don’t totally know the answer to that question because like I said, in humans, like there’s only so deep you can get into the actual brain region and brain chemistry. But we do know, from both some human studies and mostly like rodent studies and other animals, that the habenula does play an important role in regulating social behavior and motivation, which are functions that are affected in autism and ADHD. Some people think, depending on who you talk to, that the habenula might be extra active in people with ADHD because it can inhibit dopamine release, which does tend to be inhibited in ADHD. But that’s, again, mostly mouse research. And it’s hard to say, you know, can a mouse have ADHD or autism? You know, like, so it’s, it’s all kind of just trying to investigate how the habenula affects those behaviors. And then that can have implications for things like autism, ADHD, or like my work, which focuses more on addiction too.��

Asher: That’s very interesting. How do you test, or well test, how do you experiment on these mice or test on these mice? I feel like that’s not really a good way to,��

Leah: Yeah, that’s a really big question because there’s like so many neuroscience techniques. But you know, if you’re trying to think about how do you show that a particular brain region is responsible for particular behaviors? Right. If that’s kind of the question you’re asking.��

Asher: Yes.��

Leah: And that’s kind of, I think, again, draws this question of like, well, in humans we can have a person do certain behaviors and then we can seek correlations between those behaviors and the activity in different regions of the brain. But, the techniques for manipulating the activity so that we can make a judgment about what causes changes in behavior is much harder to do in humans, like ethically. ’cause we don’t wanna manipulate human brain activity, and most of those methods that we might have for manipulating brain activity involve, like, surgery. Right? And you’re not gonna do that to people. But with mice it’s like: We can do those techniques. So one example of a technique that we might use to investigate how a certain part of the brain or certain cells affect behavior is that we can, in a mouse brain, do this like super microscopic, injection of this, uh… Basically we can make it so that the cells express this protein from a different animal that is light sensitive and can cause neurons to fire when a light comes into contact with this protein. And by neurons fire, I mean becoming like more active, right? It can cause neural activity if a light that’s the right color shines on this protein. And then what we can do is implant this like super microscopic fiber optic right above that brain region in the mouse, and then the mouse can run around and do all of its behavior and hang out. And then when we want to turn on or off those brain cells to see what happens, we can shine that light down. And then that can cause a change in the mouse’s brain activity. And then if the mouse’s behavior also changes, that can tell us that that brain region or those particular cells are like responsible or important for that behavior. And that’s something we could never do in a person. So it’s pretty cool.

Asher: No, that is very cool.��

Leah: Yeah.��

Asher: I can’t, I honestly can’t really imagine that, but it. Wow.��

Leah: Yeah. Think of a, think of a mouse with, like, a little LED on the top of your head.��

Asher: Like a little antenna on the head?

Leah: Yeah. And there’s some pretty cool videos if you look up — optogenetic experiments, is what it’s called– and if you look that up, you can see some pretty cool videos, like you can just turn the light on and the mouse will start doing something different than it was doing before because of how it affects the brain depending on where you put the protein, so. Yeah, it’s pretty cool.��

Asher: That’s very interesting. Cool. Yeah. Sorry, I’m getting really into my head, just thinking about it for a minute. Wow! That’s very cool. I wanna know more about it!��

Leah: It’s really exciting.��

Asher: Yeah. So going back to the hab… habenoola. Habanoola?��

Leah: .��

Asher: Habenula! I’m gonna get it. One day, I’m gonna get it! Habenula! How does it like actually influence dopamine and serotonin? And you talked a little bit about it. And like is it a switch that turns like signals on and off, or does it have a filter and like fine tunes?��

Leah: Yeah, that’s a great question. So, how the habenula influences dopamine or serotonin does kind of depend on which cells you’re talking about. So like I said, my lab is kind of interested in showing that different cells in the habenula do different things. The most famous habenula pathway that a lot of people have studied is one of the ways that it can regulate dopamine. In that pathway, it activates a different brain region, so it turns on this other brain region, and then when that region turns on, it shuts off the dopamine regions part of the brain. But you’re right that it’s not really like a switch that flips completely on and off. It’s more like fine tuning based on the specific conditions that an animal is in. So when the animal is in certain conditions– and when I say animal, that could be a person or a mouse, right?– when the animal’s in certain conditions, the extent of that effect, like the strength of that effect, is gonna be different depending on what it is that’s happening.

Asher: Is there a way to find out, like, that region, part of the brain, isn’t working in like the mice that you work with? Like whenever you’re doing experiments or something?

Leah: Like whether or not it’s working?

Asher: Whether it’s working or not, yeah.��

Leah: Yeah. So like I said, the mice that we work with are mostly pretty much genetically Identical. I would love to get more into studying natural diversity of brain structures, but as far as rodent work, like generally, except for really rare cases, like these parts of their brain are gonna be pretty similar across animals, as far as just general function. Now there is always gonna be some level of individual variability, depending on individual animals’ development. But for humans, there’s a lot of work that shows that function of different brain regions is super different across different people and across development. There’s some interesting work being done in Kate Mills’ lab here at UO, which is a psychology lab where they’re doing like MRI imaging of brains as they develop, and kind of looking at neurodiversity across different kinds of brains and throughout development. So in mice, like, you know, generally we’re studying their very, stereotyped brains as a way to understand the basics of how the system works. And then hopefully having a basic understanding of how the system works in a very average genetically stereotyped mammal can give us more information about, like, what we should expect in like healthy or unhealthy conditions, if that makes sense.

Asher: Yeah, no, definitely. That definitely makes sense. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit more about like, what are you testing right now as far as like on the mice and like if you can go into detail of that, I would love to hear��

Leah: Yeah.��

Asher: Like what goes on in your lab? Yeah.��

Leah: Yeah. So everyone in my lab kind of has pretty different projects, but my project in particular is looking at the role that these cells play in opioid use and withdrawal. So the habenula is very well known to, potentially play a role in addiction. It’s been studied in a lot of addiction studies, and there’s also some good research out there showing that if you mess with the opioid receptors in the habenula, if you alter those genes– specifically in the habenula– you get a decrease in withdrawal symptoms in animals. And so it would be really awesome for patients recovering from opioid use if we could figure out how to prevent withdrawal symptoms, or reduce the severity of withdrawal symptoms. Because that severity of withdrawal symptoms is one of the main reasons why people will relapse when they’re trying to recover from addiction. And so having an understanding of the basics of why does affecting the opioid receptors in the habenula cause a change to withdrawal behaviors? And if we could understand why, then maybe there are other specific genes in the habenula, like specific receptors, that we could target with certain drugs to try to like help people. But that, that work of actually like designing drugs and stuff that would like help people more, would be work that other people could do, kind of based on the basic understanding that I could build of how the system works, if that kind of makes sense.

Further Applications of Research

Asher: Would this research only be focused towards addiction, or would it also be able to like do a turnaround towards people who are struggling with burnout, or depression, or anxiety?��

Leah: Sure. Yeah, that’s a really good question. That’s what I really love about basic research. So a lot of research can kind of be sorted into basic research or translational research, and what we mean by that is basic research is just trying to understand, “Hey, how does this thing work?” That could be space, that could be rocks, that could be the brain, but it’s just kind of trying to understand like, “Hey, how does this work?” Translational research is research that’s trying to go towards a goal of eventually helping human health, right? So I feel like my research kind of is on the line between those, where I’m trying to understand the basics of how the system works with hopes that there will be specific applications that someone could take to a more translational level. I love your question because I think that really highlights why basic research is so important. That usually when we try to understand a system in the brain, in the body, in the world, that ends up having implications for a lot of different things in life, not just the specific thing we started with. And actually like funding of basic research has been really called into question lately in like the current political climate, and there’s a lot of people saying we should defund basic research because they think it doesn’t help people. But really when we just understand how systems work, it helps in a lot of ways. So one example of this is that the opioid receptors in the brain are there for a reason, right? Like they’re not there because opioid drugs act on them. Opioid chemicals from plants, and then synthetic opioid chemicals act on those receptors because they’re a similar shape to the chemicals we naturally make in our body. So when you think about like endorphins, you’ve probably heard that word before. which, cause like a runner’s high, like that’s opioid chemicals, but those are made by our brain, not synthetically. And so those receptors have natural roles that they play in our brains, right? And opioid receptors, and the genes that code for opioid receptors, are known to play an important role in social behavior and social development in animals. And so understanding how these receptors act, how those part of the brain acts when those chemicals are present, even if it’s artificial chemicals, does tell us about social behavior in general. It tells us about those behaviors that are naturally affected in those parts of the brain. So part of what I’m doing in my project is also just trying to see like, “Well, when these cells become active, when we stimulate those cells, what does that do to social behavior?” And that can tell us stuff about opioid addiction and withdrawal, but that also tells us about the role that the opioid system plays in our natural social behavior. A great question. And researching the habenula is known to have, you know, potential implications for a lot of different things. Social behavior and the opioid system is what’s most relevant to my project, but a lot of people, including like other people in my lab, are studying other cells in the habenula that have more implications for things like depression. There’s a lot of research showing that the habenula is important for the way that chronic stress can result in depressive-like behavior. That chronic stress causes animals and humans alike to develop what’s called learned helplessness, that if a animal is in a constant state of stress, it can cause like depressive behavior. And actually, there’s one study that has been done where there was a patient, a human patient, who had treatment resistant depression and they put a deep brain stimulation probe, this implant that you can get. It’s usually used for things like Parkinson’s disease, but it’s basically like a pacemaker for part of your brain, right? And this patient, so it’s, you know, a really extreme case had this basically pacemaker put in their habenula and it cured their treatment resistant depression. And so I think research like that, like trying to understand like why did that help that patient? and are there less invasive ways that we can affect the system? needs this basic research on how the system works to be able to accomplish that. So.��

Asher: Oh, that’s so cool. Yeah. Did they have to keep the implant in their brain or did they take it out?

Leah: Yeah, so deep brain stimulation is permanent, you heal from the surgery and it just stays in there, kind of like a pacemaker. If you know anyone who has a pacemaker, usually they implant it and then it just stays there for the rest of their life. And they’ve been looking into deep brain stimulation for Parkinson’s patients a lot, but they’re starting to branch out and doing it in other brain regions. It’s a really like, last ditch effort kind of surgery right now. It’s not something that most people will ever get, but, I think the proof of concept in that study tells us why we should want to study these brain regions, right? And if we have a better understanding of, you know, deep brain stimulation is a serious procedure that’s really intense. But if we learned the circuitry of the system really well, and we learn what genes are expressed there, what other receptors are present there that might not be in other brain regions, we could maybe design other less invasive ways to target those things. And I think in order to be able to develop that kind of tool or treatment, we first need to just have a basic understanding of how the system works. And that’s kind of what labs like my lab try to do.

Asher: I do not understand why people would wanna like. Defund, stuff like that. It’s like trying to do [incomprehensible],��

Leah: Yeah, beats me. Exactly. Yeah.��

Asher: Like that’s the basic of like how you learn. Why would you try to defund it when we’re trying to like discover more things?

Leah: Exactly. I think a lot of people look at basic research and think that it’s useless ’cause they don’t see a direct application. Like, for example, people getting government research grants to go study some crazy animal out in the rainforest or something. People say that’s a waste of money. That’s not gonna help anyone. But there’s so many cases where the study of weird animals or interesting geology or interesting stuff in the brain ends up leading to something that we had no idea existed. There’s lots of strange animals that were just studied for the sake of studying them, that then inspired the development of new medicines based on like snake venom, or they inspired the development of new robotics based on understanding how those animals move and work. So I think a lot of people just have a hard time connecting those dots between something that appears useless or frivolous, waste of money, actually is like really important for understanding like how our world works and how biology works. So.��

Asher: I would, I would like to go like into deep ocean and like find out more.��

Leah: Yeah!��

Asher: Like antenna fish or��

Leah: Exactly.��

Asher: Not antenna fish, they’re called tripod fish. I don’t know if you’ve heard of those types of fishes before.

Leah: I’ve heard of it. Yeah.��

Asher: Stand on the ground. And it’s so weird. It blows my mind. I don’t claim to be a scientist or be good in science in general, but, and also just for other people: How are we able to help, like fund or support research like this, if it’s possible.

Leah: A lot of the decisions are out of our hands, ultimately, but I think just, remembering how important those things are and when we interact with people like in our lives who maybe are less convinced of that, being able to have that explanation ready, you know, of like, “What? No. Like it seems like some, like, we might not understand why some of this research is important, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not.” And a lot of those basic research steps are so important to eventually arrive at something and we don’t know until we try it. You know, and maybe someday a lot of these things don’t end up getting some kind of great translational application, but a lot of them might. And it’s worth trying, you know? But it is hard. It’s hard. to make those decisions as like individuals. Like so much of that is out of our power, but like really it comes down to how we vote, calling our representatives. Thankfully right now, Oregon has been continuing to be supportive of research and generally like biomedical information. Oregon is joined up with the West Coast Health Alliance to form our own resource of basically what the CDC has been providing, because they disagree with the way a lot of the science and the CDC has been undermined lately. So I’m grateful to be practicing science here in Oregon, but I think, yeah, just, voting with our values and, when those values are being threatened, calling our representatives, doing all of those important things to make sure that government funding for science sticks around is just really important.

Asher: I really appreciate, like you and whoever else is in your lab working on like treatments for addiction and other things. And just like being the first.��

Leah: Yeah. We hope that someone will be able to develop those based on our work someday.��

Asher: Yeah. Well that’s, your work is very important too. Just being like the first like stepping stones into that area of exploration.��

Leah: Exactly.��

The Neurodiversity Alliance

Asher: With that, you are the founder of the Neurodiversity Alliance at U of O. What is this organization? What do they do and how are they helping students who are on the spectrum?��

Leah: The Neurodiversity Alliance is a fully neurodivergent run student group here on campus, which provides peer mentoring, community, and resources to neurodivergent students here at UO. We also just generally try to make our campus like a better, more inclusive place of all kinds of minds. We’re still a relatively new group. We started in fall of 2022, but we’re growing a lot and working towards those goals. We now have over 200 members in the club, which is pretty exciting. But yeah, we help all kinds of students. There’s a wide, wide variety of neurodiversity within the club, specifically for autistic students. We connect autistic students with each other. Having autistic friends was one of the biggest things that made a huge difference in my life when I first started college. And so I think providing students with a place to find those people who they really feel safe to be themselves around is really huge for academic and career success. Like: being able to always have a community that you can fall back on when things feel like they’re not working, maybe in other relationships, or in your courses, is just so important. But we also help students learn how to advocate for themselves, so we teach students how to send emails to their professors properly, how to talk to their graduate students in office hours, how to do all of those things that aren’t just taught to you but are an important skill to learn. But then, yeah, we have all kinds of resources for all kinds of students. We’re currently working on a UO Club website, but we’re working on making up our public website so that the resources we’ve developed for our students can be more accessible to people outside of the group, which would be really awesome. We do really just a lot of things. We have a variety of different types of meetings that we run that help students in different ways. So some of them are very neurodivergent oriented social meetings that help neurodivergent students like, be more social with each other in a way that isn’t restrained by neurotypical ideas of what that looks like. An example of that is that every term we hold a special interest in hyperfixation fair, where students can like give mini presentations about the thing that they’re obsessed with. And it gets students much more confident talking to other people because that’s their thing that they feel confident talking about. Then we also have like discussion meetings where. We talk about some topic that’s relevant to neurodivergent and disabled student success and just workshop those topics together, which is where a lot of our resources have come from. Like we have a lot of recommendations and tips for students on a bunch of different things, whether that’s studying, finding housing, like all of that stuff that goes into being a successful neurodivergent adult. We have like a very, very active online community too, which is like a huge part of the group. We have a Discord server that is like super active and students use it all the time for like studying, asking questions. It makes the club a lot more accessible to people because there’s a place where they can get help without needing to like come in in person if they’re overstimulated or whatever it is. So it’s just a great resource to have and I think what’s been really great now, especially that I’m a grad student, is I’m not the only neurodivergent grad student in the group. Or like, there’s a lot of, like neurodivergent upperclassmen always just have so much good advice to provide to new students so that they don’t have to learn everything the hard way, you know?

Asher: Love that.��

Leah: Um, but yeah, so we do a lot of things. It’s hard to summarize in one short blurb, but it’s, it’s a pretty fun thing to be part of. Yeah.��

Asher: That’s really cool. Yeah. Do all these like events and meetings, are they mainly for students or are they also open to like the community?��

Leah: Yeah, so unfortunately all of our events so far have been just for UO students, ’cause that’s kind of like what we exist as a group. And um, that’s kind of where our funding comes from is because it’s for UO students. But there’s a lot of great, groups out there that are more open to community participation. And like I said, even though our meetings and stuff just serve UO students, we are trying to publish more of our like, resources publicly so that like anyone could benefit from them.

Asher: Where are they? Can you tell us?��

Leah: Yeah, so like I said, we’re working on it, so.

Asher: Oh, okay.��

Leah: That’s kind of our big project. It’s our big project for this year is to get our like public website up and running. But we did this year become an official affiliate of the Autistic Self-advocacy Network. Uh, ASAN, which is an excellent organization if people are not aware of. And so we’re listed as an official affiliate on their site, and hopefully as soon as that website is up and running, it’ll be posted to their site as well as a place people can come find us. So,��

Asher: That’s very good. With that, any additional information or resources you can provide for students, especially from PCC, since that’s where Main Landing Zone is for Let’s Talk.

Leah: Definitely. Generally, like I really recommend checking out the . They have some great resources for autistic college students. They have a conference that they run every year. It’s kind of like a training that’s called Autism Campus Inclusion, and it’s literally like a training for autistic students doing disability advocacy on college campuses. I did that a few years ago and it was awesome. So because they run that, they have a lot of great resources for neurodivergent college students. As for like general advice, I think really the big thing is like, find other neurodivergent students, like that’s the best resource that you have to be successful. Find disability student groups, talk to groups that are centered on your niche interests. That’s how you know I started the Neurodiversity Alliance. So what I was looking for neurodivergent friends to make, on campus, I went and sought out a group because that’s a great way to find neurodivergent people. But yeah, learning from like more experienced neurodivergent and disabled peers is like such a great resource. And, you know, a lot of the advice that’s out there for being successful in college doesn’t always work for different kinds of brains and different kinds of bodies, and I think learning from the people who have that experience is just a really great way to make that progress.��

Closing Thoughts

Asher: Do you have any, closing thoughts for us? Do you have anything to tell us about as far as like your research, or how to support what you’re doing.

Leah: Um, I don’t think I have any like specific, thoughts in particular on, on that subject, but I maybe as a closing remark, would just like encourage any neurodivergent college students out there that are listening. And there were a lot of times like, I didn’t think that I could get to where I’m at now, but I promise that if you, you know, do the hard work to figure out like what techniques work best for you to be successful, it’s a big upfront investment to figure out like what will work and, you know, learning that it’s hard to seek out help, but it’s worth doing. Anyone can get to where I’m at with that willingness to, to really figure that out, as far as like from the perspective of being a disabled student. Like that, it added a lot of challenges. It’s harder to be a disabled Ph.D candidate than it is to be a non-disabled Ph.D candidate. But, uh, if you want to go that direction, it’s worth trying.��

Asher: Yeah, for sure. And thank you so much for talking to us about all this and really appreciate the work that you’re doing, and just paving the way for a lot of other students. I really appreciate it.

Leah: I really appreciate it.��

Asher: Thank you listeners for tuning in. Thank you so much, Leah.��

Leah: Thank you.

Kylo: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, ˿����Ƶ’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at . This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resources department, and the PCC multimedia department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify channel,��, and

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

Introduction to Let’s Talk!

Kylo: You are listening to Let’s Talk! Let’s Talk!, is a digital space for students at PCC experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ˿����Ƶ PCC Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, pcc.edu/dca, on Spotify, on X-Ray, 91.1 FM and 107.1 FM, and KBOO Community Radio, 90.7 fm.��

Meet the Guest: Kari Hanken

Asher: Hello, Let’s Talk! listeners! My name is Asher and today I’m going to be interviewing a special guest today to talk about ADHD. So, can you start by telling me what your name is, your occupation, and your pronouns?

Kari: Yeah, my name is Kari Hanken, I use she/ her pronouns, and I am currently a disability counselor at PCC in the accessible ED and disability resources department.

Asher: Hi,Kari. Thank you so much for joining me today.��

Kari: Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate being invited.

Understanding ADHD

Asher: Can you start by explaining what ADHD is in simple terms for us?

Kari: Well, there’s a lot of different definitions out there, but I would like to use, like, “neurodivergent”, and that there are just natural differences between how people’s brains develop and function and their cognitive styles. In general, people with attention deficit have inattention that impacts them day to day. They can also have hyperactivity and impulsivity. But, that’s not always the case.

Asher: Oh, interesting. And, can you also just say what ADHD stands for?

Kari: Of course! “Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder”, and that is a little misleading because many people who have ADHD do not have hyperactivity. That’s something that was added in the DSM Mental health diagnosis manual a few years back. But, it used to be called just “ADD”, ” Attention Deficit Disorder”. So, they added the “hyperactivity”, but it doesn’t always apply to everyone who has ADD.

Asher: Oh, interesting. How common is ADHD or ADD among college students or young adults now?

Kari: So, The Center for Disease Control, reports out about 11% of children are diagnosed with ADHD. 15% boys, 8% girls. But, in general, the adult population would be about 12% overall.

Asher: Wow, that’s quite a number. Honestly, I wasn’t expecting such a big number.

Kari: Yeah, it really is. And, there has been an increase in diagnosis since 1997. A part of that is better identification and understanding of how ADHD impacts women. Because women were rarely diagnosed with ADHD and that’s changed the perspective. And, symptoms tend to affect women differently than men.

Asher: Oh, wow.��

Common Misconceptions About ADHD

Asher: With that, like what are some common misconceptions people have about ADHD?

Kari: Well, I think that maybe the most common is that ADHD is all bad. ADHD can be an advantage in certain settings. In particular, where creativity is needed. Thinking differently in approaching problem solving. There’s been some studies of ER doctors and there’s a lot of ADHD in the ER. Being able to work efficiently, quickly. Also, for performance, many actors, athletes report ADHD. People in the arts also. So, it is pretty prevalent. I mean, I think any work setting that you’re in, you are gonna work with somebody with ADHD, and I would guess that you’re gonna see people with big picture ideas, creative approaches, and things like that. So, I think the perception that ADHD is all bad is not the case. Now, that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t present challenges to people in certain settings, which is totally the case. But, I think the misperception that you can’t be successful or that it will prevent you from being able to reach your goals is not accurate.

Asher: For sure. I’ve heard a couple of misconceptions myself just with the idea of people with ADHD are just procrastinating or that they’re just lazy about something. I’m like, “no, it’s because there’s this physical block.”. Or, at least from how I experienced when I was in school and I didn’t know I had ADHD then, was that I couldn’t get myself to physically do an assignment until the very last minute. Which made it really difficult to get things perfectly done. And, I also have like a perfectionist attitude too.��

Kari: That’s really common. There’s this classic book that was written in the early nineties called, ” You Mean I’m Not Lazy, Stupid, or Crazy?”

Asher: I love that title!

Kari: It was written by Peggy Raimondo and Kate Kelly is the other author to that. But, it kind of illustrates a lot of misperceptions around why it can be so difficult to function with Executive Functioning for people with ADHD. Like getting started on things, continuing and finishing, that kind of thing. And, that is particularly impactful when the way that our education system is set up requires a lot of efficiency.

Asher: Yeah, definitely. you mentioned Executive Function. Is that one of the effects for having ADHD?

Kari: Well, I think that in some ways that’s a universal thing for people with ADHD. Executive Functions are in the frontal lobe. That’s the place that sort of is our organizer of our brain; where we shift gears and when we can transition back and forth to different activities, and organizing, time management– more what I would call temporal things and spatial things where it’s kind of the manager of our brain– and sometimes some of the things that can be challenging for people with ADHD.

ADHD in College Students

Asher: How does ADHD affect a student’s ability to focus, learn, and incomplete assignments? I sort of shared a little bit of my struggles with that, but are there other more difficult encounters that you have, heard of from students in what you do?

Kari: Yeah. Back to that “Executive Functioning”; being able to sort of consolidate information, use a calendaring system or list, and things like that, consistently, to be able to make sure you are keeping up on assignments, you are tracking what’s due, figuring out what priorities you have, for assignments. All of those things can create challenges. And, another part of that is sometimes physical activity and how important that is for a lot of people with ADHD. School requires a lot of sitting at a computer and very sedentary work, and so I think that adds to some of the challenges, that I hear from students; about how do I have enough time to do this and also have some sanity around my life and being able to function?

Asher: I’m recalling a lot of different scenarios from when I was still in school and just the difficulty behind it. Because, I only recently got diagnosed with ADHD myself, and then after that diagnosis I’m just like, “Oh! Everything makes sense now! Why I was struggling so much in school!”. I had difficulty sitting for very long periods of time and I always needed something stimulating me, whether it be music or whether it be like fidgeting or doing something, basically. So, yeah. That was very difficult for me.

Kari: Yeah. And that’s something that I hear from students very frequently. I cannot work in a quiet room. I need music. I need something playing in the background. Yeah, just to keep focused and be able to keep working.

Asher: What are some of the less obvious symptoms that students or faculty might overlook when someone has ADHD?

Kari: I’m kind of going back to women on this too, but the stress that sometimes the ADHD can cause people; it’s like I have this goal, I wanna complete this goal, I wanna do well, but I have things interfering with that. I think that there’s a lot of anxiety that happens for people with ADHD. And, also some shame. Because going through life with ADHD you have people pointing out things that maybe you’re not getting done like throughout your whole life and a lot of people internalize that. That can become shame for people, or guilt, or embarrassment, when things don’t go well. So, I think that is something that often isn’t apparent. Sometimes if you have untreated ADHD you’re more likely to experience depression, even addiction, issues. There’s quite a few studies around untreated ADHD and people being more likely to have addiction later in life if they’re not treated. So, there’s just a lot of things that can impact people. Maybe students stop attending because they’re getting far behind. There’s all these different things that could be happening. Like chronic absences, where students are trying to cope and they do some avoidance behavior because of that.

Asher: Yeah, that sounds very difficult.��

Emotional and Social Impact of ADHD

Asher: You were talking about anxiety and depression, would you say that somebody that has ADHD, is it more than likely that they will also have anxiety and depression too?��

Kari: Well, if you look at the statistics around it; about 85% of people who have been diagnosed with ADHD have a comorbidity. Meaning they have some other diagnosis and depression, anxiety, neurodivergence, and like autism spectrum disorder are common co-occurring experiences for people. That can happen with bipolar or any other mental health diagnosis. But, if you think about it, that means that there are very few people that only have ADHD and don’t have another diagnosis in other areas.

Asher: We talked a little bit about how a DHD influences a student’s motivation and their time management. How does it also affect their emotional regulation? Because for myself, especially, I get serious weird mood swings every single day and one small like mishap can ruin my whole day. It’s just like, “what is going on?!”.

Kari: There are some great resources, that talk about that. One of them is like a journal called “ADDitude”. But, it’s “ADD” in big letters, and I-T-U-D-E. It’s kind of ADHD Science and Strategies kind of thing. It’s really a great website. There’s an article in there that talks just about that; just emotional dysregulation. Overcompensating, going down the road of perfectionism, being impacted socially with bullying. Sometimes like impulsive behavior or turning in on yourself, that can happen. It comes out socially and what you are describing too; a lot of times people with ADHD are feeling a lot of complex emotions all at once and it’s can be so overwhelming that that can make people shut down and not really feel like they can cope with the present situation. So, you might leave or it may come out in other ways that impact emotional regulation. Because it’s distressing.

Asher: Yeah, it sounds very stressful. I don’t really know how to explain it. I feel like I keep on thinking of things way into the future when it hasn’t even happened yet, and I’m like just figure out what to do right now. And, I can’t really figure out how to just stay in that moment and like figure out what I need to do so that significant future doesn’t happen.

Kari: Exactly. Yeah, I experience some ADHD symptoms and it’s a spectrum. I try to find some ways to get those emotions back under control- Or, I don’t know if I would say under control, but so that they’re not as acute. Like for me, making a list and allowing myself to have to work a little bit late some nights. Different things. If I write it down, then I just know I don’t have to keep it in my head anymore and I can refer back to that list and not fret about it. Making sure you take enough breaks and getting physical activity, even meditating. I have some different resources that I’ll share at the end. But, there’s a lot of different things, I think, impacting all people right now. That are causing a lot of stress for people and people with ADHD, a lot of times, are very sensitive to others in their environment, to what’s happening in the room. And, sometimes that can be overwhelming, noticing a lot of things all at once and not being able to calm that down.

Asher: Oh, yeah. I totally relate to that. I think just every single time I step into, whether it’s like, a community group or just a group of people, I start reading into every single person. Like who’s okay, who’s not okay, who’s safe to go to? Or is it not safe to be here, kind of thing. I feel like I’m not giving people the benefit of the doubt, and it just makes me also just feel really bad!��

Kari: On the flip side of that too, is noticing when other people may be feeling left out or may need a human connection. I think that can be an advantage of that. So, if you can be down in the middle, as far as not overdoing it and making sure you’re taking care of yourself too; that ability to empathize and recognize that other people might be feeling similarly, is something that happens for people with ADHD.

Self-Advocacy and Support Resources

Asher: How can students with ADHD advocate for themselves if they’re struggling but hesitant to ask for help? When I was a student, I didn’t really know how to ask for help because I didn’t know what was going on. But, with those that have ADHD and are struggling to ask, how can they advocate for themselves?��

Kari: If students with ADHD are in need of accommodations in the classroom; maybe they need some help with note taking or extra time for tests and things like that. Definitely they can come to accessible ED and disability resources. There are a lot of other ways to also self-advocate. Communicate and reach out for help. There’s a lot of resources just in general at PCC. We’ve got tutoring services, we have tech tutors or digital navigators that can meet with students online and in-person. If you’re just having a hard time navigating the PCC system, that’s a great resource. What I like to do with students that I’m working with who are sort of struggling with that communication piece is just to sit down with them and compose an email together and looking at the syllabus to see if an instructor has office hours or by appointment or in person that are accessible to the student. Encouraging them to form study groups, ask other people in their class, connect with other people, so that you can share information with them or they can share information with you if you happen to miss a class or they miss a class. It’s sort of like that mutual natural support that we all can give each other if people are working together on that. A couple years back we did a parallel learning thing where students could just get online with somebody else and both be working on something. And, they wouldn’t necessarily have to be in the same class, but maybe set a goal for that time. This is what I wanna finish during this time. Let’s stay online together and help each other stay focused kind of thing.

Asher: Yes, I have heard about that! I think there’s a term for. It’s called “body doubling”?��

Kari: Yeah, “body doubling” is one way to call it, or “parallel learning”. If you have somebody that’s interested in that and you can find a common time to just log in and say, ” we’re gonna help each other get our work done”, or even going in person somewhere like the library or the Student Learning Center around campuses. I think that network of learning and sharing, a lot of times, is helpful to people. Not everybody has the schedule that they can do that. But, the fact that you can do that online with somebody is also pretty cool.

Asher: I feel like, with that, just looking out for other students that are struggling, even if they are hesitant of asking, is there like a gentle way to reach out to them and be like, “Hey, do you need help with something?”.��

Kari: What I’ve suggested to students in the past is, if they didn’t feel comfortable just approaching other students to join them; just asking the instructor to facilitate that. Just say, “I’ve got people who are interested in joining a study group. If you are interested send me an email and I’ll connect you.”. That kind of thing. I think sometimes people have to hear about resources more than once to reach out. In Accessible ED and Disability Resources, we will sometimes reach out to faculty and ask for help with that. I will do that on behalf of a student. Sometimes we will work together to kind of craft an email to the instructor to get some assistance with that. So, there are different ways to approach that I think it’s just letting people know what the resources are more than once.

Strategies for Managing ADHD

Asher: What kind of strategies or tools do you recommend to a student with ADHD to manage their workload? You also touched in on that “ADDitude” app; are there any study techniques or routines that they can get to help, whether it’s regulating their workload or, emotional regulation…��

Kari: Yeah. I think it’s so individualized for each student on what works for them and what doesn’t work for them. One bit of feedback I’ve gotten from people, because there are apps out there, this “ADDitude” website has a lot of strategies, resources, that people could tap into webinars, and eBooks, and blogs, and things like that. A lot of times I hear from students, who experience ADHD, that getting too much information can be overwhelming. Trying to figure out an app when there’s all these things that I need to be doing for classes and things like that; sometimes it’s helpful, sometimes it’s not. The most important thing is that everybody needs to customize things for themselves. What works for one person doesn’t work for another. So, sometimes I meet with students to work on time management and organization and things like that, and that’s usually my approach to that. Do alarms work for you or do you just turn them off and just keep going with what you’re doing, even if it’s not productive for you? A strategy that I often recommend to students is scheduling your classes so that you have a morning class and an afternoon class with a big gap in between to force yourself to stay on campus and get your work done as much as you can on campus, so you can access those different resources. Like tutoring or digital navigators or just be in a structured place rather than at home, where there’s so many distractions and things like that. Being able to tune out of social media and texts and really make yourself unavailable, if possible, for periods of time. Maybe it’s just a half hour, take a break, check it. So, that you’re just not constantly being pulled away from work if you’re really concentrating. So, there’s a lot of things that you can do. Putting a calendar together that has all of your assignments and tests on it, at the very beginning of the term, whether that’s electronic or paper-based. Some people like to be able to just kinda lay it all out and see it all. Then working backward; ” when do I need to start this in order to finish it on time?”, setting some goals that way, and getting support from people once you have that system set up. How are you going to track it? It’s one thing to set up the calendar, but if you’re not checking it regularly. So, before I go to school today, I’m gonna check that. Or, before I go to campus, I’m going to go through these lists and look what’s coming up? Do I need to schedule, testing accommodations in the testing center, those kind of things. So, I think that those kind of things are challenging.

Asher: Oh yeah, for sure. I found out that, for myself, if something is out of sight, it’s out of mind for me. Especially when it comes to calendars. I’ve bought so many physical calendar books that, in the end, I’m just gonna use my phone. ‘Cause it’s on me all the time, and it rings me every single time there’s something coming up. Versus a physical book that I’m just gonna dump into my backpack and I’m not gonna look at it.��

Kari: The digital things are more dynamic. Because, like you said, you’ve got ’em in your pocket. For me though, I really need a visual reminder. So, if I tuck something away and I don’t have it. It’s important to have that long-term look ahead. I also use my phone, appointment reminders, and things like that, to try to track things. If you’re trying to get into a routine of doing something; it usually takes about 30 days for you to really establish a habit and a routine. So, really focusing on maybe one goal of I’m checking this calendar every morning before I get started with the day and having it in a reminder or something like that. Those kinds of things help to establish routines.

Asher: How does the Disability Service Office work with students to create individualized support plans? And that goes for you as well.

Kari: Well, different from K 12. We don’t have IEPs or 504 meetings. But, a lot of times we might use that information to help better understand when the student comes into our office. We have a website where students can go and fill out an application. Then we will reach out to students and set up an initial meeting. And, in that meeting we usually are focusing on; ” what are your strengths?”, “what are your goals?”, “what are you made gonna major in?”, And, ” what are you experiencing barriers?”. Then, based on that conversation, we set up kind of a menu of options, that students can customize each term, for each of their classes. Once that’s set up, students make their request for the term, and that request is emailed to the instructor. Then that kind of starts the accommodation process. Some of that is classroom accommodations, testing accommodations, note taking supports… But, we also then have supports through our office. If it’s helpful for you to check in periodically; I oftentimes have people say, “I’ve gotta have some accountability. Will you be that person to help me?”. My approach is, ” what is it that you need in those meetings?”. I’ve had students go, “I can’t keep up with my email. If I could just go in and just be checking my email and that’s just the time I’m gonna do it.”. Or, maybe it is, “let’s look at this week and what are the upcoming things that are happening in the following weeks.”. Those kind of things. So, we definitely do some organization, time management, that kind of thing.

Asher: Which is very, very helpful, I feel like, in a stressful environment such as college or school. in general. There was a time where I decided to take four, four credit classes. Which I think I was a little bit crazy for doing so. But, I mean in my own defense, those were the only classes that were available during that term and, if I waited, I would have to wait for another two or three terms in order to take it. Basically, I got so stressed out that I just had to sit down with my calendar and try to just figure out; ” this day I’m doing this. This day I have this due. This day I have…”

Kari: Mm-hmm.��

Asher: I also wish that I had someone sitting next to me and being like, “okay, Hannah! You got this! This is what you need to do!”.

Kari: Right. The other thing that I often tell people, especially people with ADHD; because, I think that a lot of times self-esteem can be wrapped up in that just because if you’ve repeatedly felt like maybe I caused some disappointment because I was having difficulty following through on things, and stuff like that. I think people with ADHD are very hard on themselves, and it’s really important for people to know that they can give themselves some slack and be able to say, “you know what? I didn’t do it this time, but that doesn’t mean that I’m an abject failure for doing that.”. It’s kinda like, “this is my goal. I’m not gonna always meet it. But, I’m going to still work toward it and sometimes I may slack off and not stay in that goal. But, I’m going to keep working toward it.”. I do often say to students, when we do organization and time management, there’s no judgment coming from me. You need to cancel an appointment, or if you haven’t done what the goal was for that week, I’m not going to judge you on that. We’re just gonna keep working toward meeting the things that you’ve set up as priorities and goals.��

Asher: I feel like that’s just especially hard for those that have ADHD. There’s just such a fixation, I think? At least in my opinion, of if I don’t get it right this time, “oh, it’s over.”.

Kari: ” Maybe I might need to take this class again.”, or, ” I’m not going to get an ‘A’. Maybe I’m going to get a ‘B’ in this class.”, kind of thing. And, to be fair, there’s a lot of programs that have really high expectations on grade point average, and things like that. So, it also is societal pressure too. That’s on everyone. But, I think, if you don’t have a great history in school and you’re nervous about that, it’s even more pressure.

Asher: With that, what advice would you give to a student who suspects they might have ADHD, but haven’t been formally diagnosed?

Kari: If you just wanna talk to somebody, like an informational interview or just say, “Hey, this is what I think might be going on.”, you can always come into Accessible ED and Disability Resources. This “ADDitude” website, the ADHD Science and Strategies, has a lot of really good information for somebody who is looking into it. There’s a description of symptoms in adults, women, just the brain itself, and then some different symptom checker tools to go, ” where do I fall?”. Just to do some exploration if you wanna do that on your own. ADHD it occurs in childhood through adulthood, and a lot of people choose careers where ADHD, like I said, is an advantage. Or, maybe somebody chooses a career where there’s a lot of movement, or big ideas are important, that kind of thing. People do tend to go toward careers that use those skills that people with ADHD have. it’s an enhancement of the work environment to have people that can think like that and be creative on the team.

Asher: Yeah. Each person who has ADHD is different from the next person. I’m guessing there’s not like a rigid, ” you have ADHD”, but there’s like a different definition for each single person that has ADHD, whether it’s like a range from how severe to how not severe. Would you say that’s correct?

Kari: Yeah. Like with the comorbidities that it impacts people very differently, and there are similarities, right? We’re talking in a lot of generalizations. But, another thing that is very common, that people don’t think about, is that a lot of people with ADHD can be very hyper-focused on things, especially areas of interest. So, a lot of people don’t realize that maybe they have ADHD because they can focus for long periods of time. I look more at like, how do you transition from something that you’re super interested in to something that you’re not very interested in? I think that is interesting. In fact, way back in the field, I used to teach in public school and I taught elementary. It was really interesting, because at the time there was not the idea that over focused was a part of ADHD. And, so that would oftentimes make people not pursue assessments for kids, if they were able to really focus on something.

Asher: Interesting.

Kari: Yeah.

Asher: I’ve actually noticed that with myself as well. I tend to like really zone in on a certain task, or whatever I’m doing. Whether it’s a hobby, or work, and if anybody decides to like interrupt me or tap me on the shoulder, I would jump and I would get triggered, for some reason. I don’t really understand that and I’ve not figured out if that’s ADHD or if that’s something else, but what will you say about that?

Kari: My Experience is similar to that.

Asher: Oh! Okay, great! So, it’s not just me!

Kari: Yeah. I’m really into music and I play a couple instruments. There are times where it’s really hard for me to tear myself away and go do the laundry or, do other things that I need to do. Now, I have kids and they’re grown and gone, so I don’t have as much responsibility, as I used to. But, being a parent was very challenging because of all the shifting and transitions that you have to do. So, I often felt very overwhelmed.

Asher: That’s very interesting. Different life stages, I would say, would also affect ADHD too; just how you respond to stuff and all that. I really wanna get more in depth into like researching more about ADHD, especially after figuring out about being diagnosed. I’ve read a lot of things, but at the same time, it’s great to hear from an actual person about, “this is what ADHD is”, and “this is what you need to look out for”.��

Kari: Yeah. Like I said before, everybody has a different experience. They have a different childhood, different makeup genetically, and things like that. But, it does tend to run in families. There’s a pretty big correlation with ADHD in families. It accounts for a lot of diversity in how you think about things and how you approach them.

Asher: Second to last question.��

Success Stories and Final Thoughts

Asher: Any success stories when working with a student with ADHD?��

Kari: I have so many. I couldn’t really speak to them, in different cases because of confidentiality. But, I do wanna say that, we’ve had students with ADHD in probably every program that’s ever run at PCC. We have ” Honor Society”, “Delta Alpha Pi”, for students who have achieved a 3.1 or higher and identify as having a disability. That’s been going since 2020. I know there’s many people with ADHD who have been inducted into that Honor Society at PCC. There’s many people who work at PCC, have ADHD. The prevalence of it, at about 12%, just shows that there are a lot of people who experience that. You are going to have people in every walk of life who struggle with that, makes them who they are, and makes them good at their jobs, in certain aspects of school, and things like that.

Asher: It’s crazy that in every single department, you said, that there is a student with ADHD. That’s impressive!

Kari: Well, I am just anecdotally looking at that. I don’t know for sure, but I’ve worked here for almost 30 years and I’ve worked with almost every program at PCC. Whether it’s medical programs, vocational, technical, STEM. I, myself, have just seen that there are people with ADHD in all of the programs. When we have the “Delta Alpha Pie” induction in the spring every year, students can submit information for a slide, and what we do is have the student’s picture and whether they’re graduating, what they’re majoring in. I can tell you that one of my favorite things of the year to see all the different programs that have students with disabilities in general. It’s pretty impactful for people to see each other and know that people are successfully participating in programs at PCC.��

Asher: That’s very impactful. I would say that even with having ADHD, you’re not completely unable to do all these different tasks. Maybe it takes a little bit longer for the person.��

Kari: Yeah. Or, a different approach. One of the biggest challenges that we now run into is, like you said; you took that term with four classes. There being procedural things that happen at the college, whether it’s through financial aid and within financial aid. I’m required to take all of these credits each term in order to finish at this time. So, it’s hard to have some flexibility in there for a difficult term, or like a life event. That’s really for everyone. But, my preference is for people to take the number of credits that they can take that’s manageable, and that might be two classes for somebody. But, they may be required because of loans, to take three classes, and that’s more than they can manage if they’re given their own life situation. Whether they have a family, or they have work commitments, and things like that. So, I wish that was a little bit different for students, so there was more flexibility for them to take their time and not feel this pressure to do everything all at once. Because, I think that one size fits all doesn’t really work for most people.

Asher: I have one final question. And, you can feel free to not answer it. But, I found out that with myself, with having ADHD, is that I’m having a lot of difficult times with making friendships and being able to hold relationships for a very long period of time. I think it’s also just with a lot of anxiety and a lot of thoughts that just go through my head, or self-sabotaging, or whatnot. Are there any ways to help with that? And, I know that’s a very broad question.

Kari: Yeah. In a time too where there’s a lot of strong opinions on different things, it may be hard to find somebody who you can kind of trust and that you feel comfortable with and have social interests that are similar. I really think that, at PCC too, being a community college and people come and go, and a lot of times they’ll be like, “I come to school for class and then I leave right away.”. But, if there are people that are really interested in belonging and making connections with others. I always go back to, again, stay on campus as much as you can. Get involved in the clubs at PCC. There’s a lot of different clubs, social ones, academic ones. That’s a way to meet people. Go to the student centers. We have the Queer Resource Center, Veterans Resource Center, multicultural Center, Women’s Resource Center. I think that those are places to meet other people who are interested in, developing friendships and finding people that are interested in social types of activities. Because, there’s such a big student body, but we’re not all there at the same time, and there’s people that have evening classes only. But, I think that those belonging activities are essential for people to feel like they belong here. A-S-P-C-C, student government things that are going on, and getting involved on campus I think is a really good way to be a part of things and meet people. The more people you meet the more likely you may have a chance to find friendship in those activities. We also, with Accessible ED and Disability Resources, have a Disability Cultural Alliance, or DCA, which we call the “Hub” at Southeast Campus, and that’s specifically for people with disabilities. There’s a lot of online and in-person ways to interact with that because it is at Southeast. So, it’s not always in everybody’s range, geographically. But, like I said, there are some online activities. We’ve had an ADHD support group. I’m not sure if they’re running that right now, but certainly, if students are in interested, that could be a place for belonging and just having peer support. So, I guess that was a very long answer.

Asher: No, it’s totally fine. I really appreciate that. Yeah. The ADHD support group that you mentioned, is that happening in PCC as well?

Kari: You know, I’m not sure. But, I am going to look it up right now and see if it’s running. So the Disability Cultural Alliance or DCA, that’s a group of people that are doing programming for students with disabilities specifically. But, the actual hub where we have a space right now is at Southeast Campus. We also have town halls every month, and we have opportunities for employment for students that may want to work for our department and do some programming around other students. So, I think that a good place to start is to go to that website. I’m looking right now; the ” ADHD Peer Resource Group”. Yeah, so it looks like you can join that group if you click on the link. Like I said, I’m not sure that they’re running regular meetings right now, but you can ask to join the group. The description of it is creating community and sharing ADHD adventures on PCC campuses. Focused on ADHD, open to all Neurodiverse students.

Asher: I’ll have to take a look into that. That sounds very interesting! Where has this been my whole life?!

Kari: I’m not exactly sure that it is running right this minute, but it has been in the past. For people to join the group, that would probably spur meeting regularly. There’s ADHD Aware is a website that talks about perspective from the UK. So, I always like to look at what kinds of resources they have as well. Sometimes they are more progressive in their thinking about things.

Closing Remarks

Asher: Well, thank you Kari. Do you have any closing thoughts for us? Anything you’d like to share to our listeners, especially students heading into this new term in regards to getting support and reaching out?

Kari: I would say, use the resources. That’s why we’re here. Your tuition and fees pay for these services, and as much as you can be on campus use the resources for “belonging” too. I think that all of those resources are really helpful.

Asher: Well, thank you so much, Kari, for joining me once again, and I will talk to you guys later, listeners.

Kari: Thank you for inviting me. I really appreciated the time to talk to you.

Asher: Of course. Thank you so much.

Kari: Thanks, Asher.��

Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, ˿����Ƶ’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at . This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Assessable Education and Disability Resource Department, and the PCC multimedia department. We air new episodes on our home website, our Spotify Channel,�� , and

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Ricardo Bravo

Guest Introductions

Ricardo: Hello everybody. My name is Ricardo Bravo with the Let’s Talk PCC Podcast Collective. Today I’m joined by my good friend and guest Mr. Wightman.��

Gabe: Hey guys.��

Ricardo: We’re adding a new addition to the podcast called “The Rap Sheet“. For our first episode, me and Gabe are gonna be talking about the best seasonal Rap & R&B albums that you should be listening to right now. Gabe, do you wanna go first?��

From CHROMAKOPIA to King’s Disease III: Fall Essentials

Gabe: I can go first. I could name Tyler the Creator’s “CHROMAKOPIA” album for the fall. A very solid pick for the fall. It hits all those notes. Maybe it’s because it came out in October.

Ricardo: Last year actually, to be exact. Are there certain songs, production choices that he took on that album that remind you of okay, this is fall.

Gabe: Oh, I don’t know, I think the album as a whole is pretty good. There’s some songs that definitely do not fall. Thought I Was Dead Is not a fall song. Get your blood going and hyped. As far as Fall goes, I would probably say some of his softer songs where it’s more acoustic. Hey Jane, or Judge Judy. I’ve been listening to it and honestly, I can see where you’re going. If you’re listening to a fall album. You can’t go too harsh with it. He has some very good fall songs on the album.��

Ricardo: When it came to listening to this album. There’s a couple of songs that I could talk about, Hey Jane, that’s obviously one of them. Just how calming and soothing it is, from the bridges in the end. That carries throughout the entire song. He’s a great producer, honestly.��

Gabe: It’s like each album improves. His music’s been going up.��

Ricardo: You could probably also talk about, aside from Hey Jane, maybe Darling Eye. But when I hear that song, to me it feels like a prom song. Maybe it’s the piano melodies, the bouncy synths that go back and forth in the beginning. That, to me, feels like a coming of age, prom love story in a way. I’m looking at the track list right now, here, guys. I hope you find your way home and could make that as well.��

Gabe: Honestly, I think that fits that category for sure.��

Ricardo: It could be that one. When it comes to CHROMAKOPIA, it’s like certain songs that I’m looking at: Okay, this is fall. But for the rest of the other songs: Sticky, Thought I was Dead, Balloon. These are party anthems, more hype, more energy.

Gabe: I think you pretty much covered it for the most part. Looking at the album cover, I know there’s a concept. The colors and everything, gives a little bit of fall vibes. It has those colors which are soft, mellow. It’s a good fall album. But, like you were saying, it does have those songs that don’t really fall, they’re more an anthem like Sticky, Thought I was Dead, and Balloon.

Ricardo: When it comes to Tyler, I don’t think he ever holds back. When I listen to him, just like I listen to Kendrick or Ye. They have variety when it comes to their music. It’s almost like you’re going to a buffet. There’s different types of plates for everybody. Different sounds, different pockets, production styles You got CHROMAKOPIA, which is good I’ll give it to you, but talk about Flower Boy. I was getting into Tyler’s music last year. Seeing Yonkers for the first time. Eating a cockroach bro. The black Eminem right here. I was like: what do I actually wanna listen to? Who do I wanna listen to? I didn’t have a lot of curiosity on getting into this guy. I don’t know if his music’s gonna be good. A couple years passed by and then I finally get into him last year I got to this album in the fall. A month before he was gonna drop CHROMAKOPIA. I’ve heard a lot of great albums this year, but this album is beautiful. This, to me, is his best album. I know a lot of people are gonna say, IGOR, I understand you. I don’t care. Flower Boy is his best album. Everything from the album cover is just screaming fall at you. This sunset, orange sky, you have the sunflower field, the rainbow. This is a fall album. You cannot look at this and tell me this is not even just taking songs like Boredom, Garden Shed with Estelle, 911. The production on these songs, they’re screaming fall at you. I remember listening to Boredom when I was working at Amazon in the fall last year. This is the perfect scenario for what I’m talking about. Looking at the sunset, I was in a rural area. Seeing the sunset and then hearing this song, of course the album cover. This is a fall album and it’s maybe one of the best fall albums that I’ve heard, at least in my opinion as of right now.��

Gabe: You did a pretty good job, covering everything. This is a very good fall album. Like you were saying, the album art itself is really good, especially with the bees and clouds. He picked a very specific shade of orange that is basically the embodiment of fall. 9 1 1 is good and Boredom is a really good one. Outside of the fall vibes, it has a very, stacked track list as far as features go. On Apple Music, it’s named as a hundred of the best albums ever. It deserves that title. I know you’re gonna throw some shade at me, but I think IGOR is better, but that’s just me.��

Ricardo: IGOR is another album that I mess with as well. This is not really a fall album. It feels more like, again, prom music. I’m listening to songs like “Running Out of Time”, “Earthquake” ” Gone Gone”. They have this disco ball-esque production. You know what I mean?��

Gabe: I can definitely see that. Especially with Running Out of Time or Are We Still Friends?

Ricardo: I still think it’s an amazing album. But, for me, my favorite season is fall so I already have a bias towards Flower Boy easily. IGOR is great. He definitely went more alternative with this. One time he said that “IGOR” is Flower Boy on steroids. You know what I see?��

Gabe: Yeah. I could see it.

Ricardo: It’s more like a late night summer album, but how do you feel on it? I’m not sure what season this could be.��

Gabe: I would say a summer album. But I’m a little biased on that just because what you had with Flower Boy is what I had with IGOR. My dad listened to a lot of rock music. So I basically listened to a lot of rock music growing up. Starting high school, I started trying to actually see what music I like. That’s when I got into some of the bigger artists like Drake, Travis Scott, Kendrick Lamar, but then. IGOR came out. I started getting into Tyler and this was his first project I listened to. I really fell in love with this album. It’s one of his perfect projects and he does get really experimental with it. I just remember listening to this album in my computer class I was taking in high school towards the end of spring term. It was just perfect work music, summer music. It was such a good album. Any fan that you talk to and ask: what’s your favorite album of his, every single person is either gonna say IGOR or Flower Boy. It’s not even a debate, just some of his best works ever.��

Ricardo: We’re still in fall though. There’s definitely a couple that I have here, since he just dropped this album. I wanna talk about Bryson Tiller’s Solace. I don’t know if you had the chance to listen to that.

Gabe: Yeah, I listened to it. You start it off, let’s get into it.��

Ricardo: I know he said this was a fall album. He did that Apple music interview. I saw it and he said: I want you to listen to this by yourself, not with your homies, not with your girl. Just listen to it. Listen to what I’m saying. Listen to the words. And I did that. I definitely think it’s way better than vices. The production choices. The concept of course. Just the first song Strife where he talks about how distant he’s been from his daughter and wife. But if we’re talking about fall specific, I definitely do want to talk about star signs in terms of that production, not just his singing, but the way the beat feels. It’s very simplistic. It’s got some moody sense that goes in and out. Bryson Tiller, he’s known for rapping and singing over this very moody trap production, which a lot of people love him for. I’m one of those people obviously. If I had to choose another fall song, I could probably go for “Autumn Drive”, “Workaholic”. But to be honest with you, there’s not too much here that I’m like: this feels like fall. The only song that I really got was “Star Signs.”��

Gabe: Definitely not a bad album. I’ve mentioned this to you before, outside of the season thing. I didn’t like how he did the split cover art image But, that’s just me. Anyways, getting into the actual season part of it. I listened to both. I wasn’t the biggest fan of Vices as a summer album, but we can get into that later. Looking at Solace, I thought it was definitely a lot better than Vices. Especially going off the first track with “Strife”. I think that was a very solid, first track. I haven’t listened to too much Bryson Tiller, but I could maybe say some of his best work is Solace, not Vices. I can’t really say that definitively, ‘ cause I haven’t gotten into too much so I’m sure if I listen to his bigger hits from Trap soul or Anniversary. They’re on my list. My 60 artists list that I have going on.��

Ricardo: Yeah, the whole double album thing threw me off. I’m like: if you wanted to drop Vices. Just make it a separate album. Why does it have to be attached to Solace, you know?��

Gabe: Well, what really got me is compared to Metro Boomin’s We Don’t Trust You. If you really wanna think about it, that was a double album because they released We Don’t Trust You whenever that was. I think it was March and then a few weeks later they released We Still Don’t Trust You. I consider that as a double album because it’s within that same realm. I feel like Bryson should have released it like that: Vices first as just its own thing and then Solace is next.��

Ricardo: I’ll say this though, about, Solace, I think it’s a decent fall album. Definitely not one of the best. It’s not bad though. Talking about “Strife”, “Star Signs”, “Autumn Drive”, they have this very chill, moody production that I could definitely listen to if I was driving on the road, seeing the autumn trees pass me by.

Gabe: I could see myself listening to this too, but I’d probably be the same way where I think there’s maybe one or two tracks that’s a fall vibe, but that’s about it.��

Ricardo: Do you know that he’s dropping another album? He mentioned this in the Apple Music interview. I don’t know if it’s gonna be next year, but he says he’s dropping an album called Serenity. He’s been working on it since 2018.��

Gabe: I’ve seen bits and clips of that interview and I remember I sent it to you. He was saying how, one of his inspirations or something about fall was to listen to For All The Dogs by Drake. That’s a later thing but based on what I’ve listened to and heard from him. It really seemed like this was more of a therapy session to him. It seemed like he really got into a lot of very personal tracks and topics. Stuff that he’s gone through. Overall, I thought it was a very strong album as far as Solace goes.��

Ricardo: Decent project for sure, though. Did you ever get to listen to his Bryson Tiller album?

Gabe: I haven’t listened to the full thing, but I definitely listened to at least half of it.��

Ricardo: That one is pretty good honestly, it took me a while to get used to the whole, robotic futuristic concept he was going for.��

Gabe: It’s a little weird. I’m looking at it right now. And he changed the album art, so now it’s just this, dark pink, neon cover. There is one that I do wanna talk about that is the embodiment of fall. I don’t know if I’ll take your answer at all, but I was gonna go with The Lost Boy by Cordae.

Ricardo: A great fall album.

Gabe: I know I was talking with you a little bit about this one and his album that he released last year, The Crossroads. But I listened to this one the other day and you’re right, The Lost Boy clears. It’s the perfect Fall album. One of the best fall albums you could listen to.��

Ricardo: There’s definitely some songs that offer an alternative to that. “Lost and Found”, “Nightmares are Real”, “We Gon Make It” with Meek Mill, “RNP”. These are summer bangers in a way. But at the same time, he does a good job of blending that summer vibe with that fall vibe. Then I hear “Thanksgiving”, “Winter Time”, “Thousand Words”. These songs feel really melodic. He hits those melodies so well to the point where I can picture that Thanksgiving table, I can picture that Turkey, that stuffing. Those collared greens, the pumpkin pie. He did a really good job with those songs.��

Gabe: You honestly just took the words right out of me. It is one of the better fall albums because it embodies that later time in fall where it’s that transition from fall into winter. Especially with the track “Thanksgiving”, like you were saying: I can close my eyes and picture people setting the table for Thanksgiving, having the song on in the background while you’re eating Thanksgiving is perfect. It is one of the better songs for sure.��

Ricardo: It’s unfortunate because the thing with Cordae, I feel like he’s so underrated. People put him in this box of: oh, he’s just another J. Cole. They didn’t really give him enough time to affirm his position as: I’m, one of the more better modern rappers of this generation,��

Gabe: I would honestly say the same thing. I think he’s definitely underrated. He has a lot of connections with Rap in general. When news broke out that Juice WRLD passed away, Cordae was hit the hardest because he was one of his best friends, like, of all of everyone. So it hit him the hardest. People almost overlook him even though they shouldn’t, but they do. Everybody needs to give him a shot ’cause he’s a really good artist.��

Ricardo: Yes. The album that I was gonna talk about was King’s Disease III.��

Gabe: Interesting pick.��

Ricardo: That one definitely has a variety of production. I remember this dropping November of 2022. SOS by SZA dropped as well. Redveil’s learn 2 swims. Have you listened to that album?��

Gabe: No, I really need to. Occasionally, I’ll come across his songs. I need to listen to that album.

Ricardo: Yeah, we’ll get into that, in a bit. But King Disease III. The third installment of Nas King’s Disease album ran with Hit Boy.��

Gabe: He really didn’t miss. Outside of the fall aesthetic, I think King’s Disease II was a little bit overrated but the first one and third one was great.

Ricardo: For me the second one is his best one. It’s the production. The album made me feel like summer. For King Disease III. There’s definitely certain songs that make me feel like fall. Listening to “Reminisce”, “Serious Interlude”, “Get Light”. Those specific songs in general. They have that party bounce, but they still have mellow sounds to them. I had a job as, bottle drop handler where I was going to different stores and clearing out those green bottle drop bags. I was doing this as I was listening to this album and driving to it. Vivid memories of the fall.

Gabe: It’s definitely one of the better runs in hip hop. Besides, I don’t know if I wanna say this anymore. Nah, I’m already here. Maybe next to Lil Wayne’s The Carter series?

Ricardo: Are we talking about one through five, one through three or one through four?

Gabe: I would extend it to four. I think five was his falling off. Good album, but falling off and then six was just trash, I know you’re listening to it right now, but when you get to six, you’ll know six was just bad.��

Ricardo: I’ve been listening to Bryson’s new album, but I’m about to get back to Wayne. I think I’m, still on I’m Not a Human Being II��

Gabe: That one’s not bad. Some of his other projects, they’re not bad. I think everyone, whenever they actually do listen to his discography, listen to the Carter albums for sure.

Ricardo: Yeah. But The Carter albums and King’s Disease. I feel like those first four are super iconic. I don’t know if I’d put Nas’s series in the same conversation. But to be honest, I’m not mad about that. This run is definitely super iconic in terms of his catalog.��

Coldest Winter: Take Care, Recovery, & 4 Your Eyez Only

Gabe: I remember towards the end. He did another series called Magic and he dropped two and three in the same year. I haven’t listened to two or three, but I think he was trying to do a new series and that wasn’t bad, but nothing’s touching his King’s Disease series at all.��

Ricardo: I feel like the Magic series is underrated. Nobody talks about that one as much. That has to be his most hungriest raps ever for the age he’s in. I still go back to the first Magic. Honestly, this will be a perfect segue into talking about the winter. Magic, to me, is a perfect winter album. Have you listened to this one?��

Gabe: I’ve listened to a few tracks, but not the whole thing.

Ricardo: If we’re talking about the production, you can go to “Speechless,” “Hollywood Gangsta,” “Wave Gods.” The production feels like it’s winter in New York.

Gabe: Yeah. I could see it.��

Ricardo: This is definitely still the best one. Once you get to two and three, there’s so much bloat. It dies down a little bit. I would say magic is a decent winter album.

Gabe: I would agree with that. Pretty good pick. I wouldn’t say it’d be the perfect winter album, but definitely up there. I think it’s definitely something good to get you into that wintertime mood. Especially with Thanksgiving ending and coming up to Christmas. The snowy nights.

Ricardo: For the winter, now that we’re on that season. What Rap / R&B album do you think is perfect?��

Gabe: I have a couple listed. It’s gonna be a weird take: Certified Lover Boy by Drake. I was trying to think and see what other people were saying about winter albums. I did see one person say this album, and I don’t know. But I’ve been listening to it a lot and I could see it. “Champagne Poetry” has that soft melody, that vocal loop going in the background. I’ve been listening to that on repeat lately too. I can see this being on repeat in the winter time. I know a lot of people hate this album.

Ricardo: You’re one of them.

Gabe: No, I’m switching up on this album. I’m starting to like it. I was always that person to hate on this album just because of everything about it. But take off a couple songs to reduce it down to 15 tracks and I would say this is a very solid album. Like “Fair Trade”, it’s not the ideal winter song, but one of the most perfect melodies I’ve heard out of his catalog. The winter melody to it, Travis Scott doesn’t really match that vibe. But it has those softer songs.

Ricardo: You know, when this came out, it was summer. One of the songs definitely reminded me of that late night summer vibe, chilling by the beach. But again, I’ll get into that when we get to the summer season. All right, but we’re still on winter man. Speaking of Drake, if we’re gonna talk about any album being the perfect winter album, we’re gonna talk about Take Care, his best album by far. You don’t agree with me.

Gabe: Don’t get me wrong, it’s the top three albums. But I’m more of a Nothing Was The Same guy. I like fall, winter, but summer hits differently.

Ricardo: When I first listened to it, I’m like: this is definitely a winter album. Maybe it’s just the beautiful piano keys on “Over My Dead Body”, ” Marvin’s Room.” That mellow synth. It’s like snow falling outside, you’re by the fireplace. Drink some hot cocoa, watch a movie cuddled up in your blankets. Songs like “Doing It Wrong,” “Look What You’ve Done, “Practice.” The way he hits these R&B pockets throughout all these songs. This is just a type of album that you could literally get cuddled up in a blanket with your partner and fall asleep to.��

Gabe: Definitely one of his best albums for sure. There’s some songs that I’m not think have a winter vibe. “Crew Love” The Weeknd has vocals that definitely do that. But the beat that has a party, clubbing type beat. Good song but that takes it out a little bit. Maybe “Buried Alive Interlude”, good song, but takes it out. Other than that, it definitely has some hitters. “Marvin’s Room” was a very good pick. Good Winter song.��

Ricardo: A lot of these songs were from “The Weeknd”. He gave him basically an album full of songs.��

Gabe: I think especially with a lot of the events and controversy that’s going around with Drake. This is one of them and some are arguing that it wasn’t, and he was just featured a lot or some were saying that it was. Listening to the album, I could see it being a lot of Weeknd songs given to ’em.

Ricardo: Listen to certain songs like “Crew Love”, those moody R&B synths similar to something that you would hear on TRAPSOUL for Bryson or just R&B in general. During this time, The Weeknd was on his mixtape run with the Thursday albums. I definitely do hear that production style from his music onto this album.��

Gabe: Oh, a hundred percent. A good winter album for sure. It’s another one that’s named a hundred best albums of all time. Very good album.��

Ricardo: It’s interesting too because Drake was mad that The Weeknd decided to not sign to OVO and instead start his own XO label.

Gabe: I could see the potential if he did sign to OVO but I’m glad he didn’t, just because of everything that’s been going on. I follow a lot of the rap news, especially with everything Drake right now. Just with UMG as a whole, they’re a terrible record company. I’m glad he didn’t because the weekend would be more controlled with his music. He wouldn’t be as creative and I don’t think his catalog would be as good if he did sign. Then he would be under UMG and his music would be drastically different.

Ricardo: We’re still on the topic of winter albums. I have to talk about one of Ye’s classic albums 808s & Heartbreak. When this album came out a lot of people didn’t like it because of the autotune. But they were not listening to what he was going through during this time from his mother passing away, the Taylor Swift situation. But, this is a winter album really. Specific songs, ” Bad News,” ” Welcome to Heartbreak,” “Say You Will”. In terms of production, probably the most iconic production styles in Ye’s catalog are easily. He really did a good job on making you feel like: I’m in pain right now and everything’s cold, sad, depressing. He pulled you into this album. Honestly, I have not gone back to this album at all. I can’t listen to a song like “Street Lights”.��

Gabe: I’ve listened to this album once, but haven’t gone back to it because it’s the same situation with Mac Miller. They release new albums which end up being good, but I can’t go back to them because of how serious they are. Even though I have my own thoughts on him as an artist, he does do a good job with his music. This one was definitely a good one, especially for winter.��

Ricardo: I remember seeing a TikTok of songs that I can’t go back and listen to. “Street Lights” was one of them. It’s probably one of the best on this album in my opinion, because of the way it feels. I can really picture vividly in the car, passing all the lights, feeling super bummed, sad.

Gabe: Even has a song called “Coldest Winter”, I think that speaks for itself. A good album to jam to in the winter.��

Ricardo: Recovery by Eminem. If you’ve listened to that one.��

Gabe: I can see it. I haven’t listened to it in forever, but I can see it.��

Ricardo: For me it’s specific songs. “25 To Life”. It has this woman singing in the beginning and it feels very cold, distant, mellow. It makes me feel like winter. But even then, I know this is his comeback album after going on that drug relapse and him being gone for almost five years. Going Through Changes.” Very sad, mellow. It feels like a cold winter album to me.��

Gabe: I could see it. It definitely isn’t the most obvious pick in the world. There’s some others that are: here’s this one. But it’s definitely not a bad pick. I remember I listened to a little bit of the album and I don’t know if you could say: this is a winter song. “Space Bound”. It’s been forever since I broke that record. It’s still not a bad album in general. Winter has a lot of picks. Hard to listen to, but Circles for instance being the open track on the album. It sets the vibe for the rest of it. So I think it’s definitely a good winter pick��

Ricardo: For Mac Miller, the songs that always pop up on my playlist, they’re from Divine Feminine, Swimming, Faces, Blue Slide Park. Those are definitely albums that I still go back to, especially Divine Feminine. Circles is definitely a good pick. Do you have another one?��

Gabe: 4 Your Eyez Only by J. Cole.��

Ricardo: Okay. I’ll give you that one. That always felt like a spring album to me, though.

Gabe: I could see it. I listened to the album again. It has that mellow vibe. “Neighbors” for instance. Listen to that during the winter. I don’t know if that’d be a total winter album.��

Ricardo: Honestly, I can see it. When I listened to this album. It was springtime for me. I was in my junior year of high school when I was getting into J. Cole. The song that made me feel like it’s more for spring, which we’ll get into that season later. It was definitely “Change” with Ari Lennox. But if we’re talking about winter for 4 Your Eyez Only. There’s definitely a couple here. “She’s Mine Pt. 1,” ” 4 Your Eyez Only.” The title track. “For Whom The Bell Tolls”. Those songs definitely feel like it’s cold, snowing outside. He touches on very heavy subject matter, especially in the last song ” 4 Your Eyez Only.” It’s one of the best off this album.��

Gabe: Outside of Forest Hills Drive, a lot of people say that his second best is 4 Your Eyez Only which I can definitely see.

The Spring Bloom: SZA’s CTRL & Baby Keem’s Melodic Blue.

Ricardo: We can talk about spring though. There’s definitely some songs that make me feel: okay, the flowers are blooming. We’re getting into summer, but not quite yet. I have to talk about SZA’s CTRL. The album cover, she’s sitting in a pretty grassy area. This is a spring album. The girls are getting their sun dresses out, the sun’s coming back, and flowers are blooming. I could talk about “Supermodel,” ” Prom,” ” Weekend,” ” Garden,” ” Normal Girl,” and “20 Something.” Front to back, classic R&B album, but those songs specifically. “Prom” has these very bouncy synths that carry you throughout the entire song. “20 Something” where she’s talking about vulnerability, still being young, and not finding love. Sad, but at the same time I can envision myself having a picnic with a girl, sitting in a big, open greenfield.

Gabe: It definitely gives off that feeling and that vibe. You can see it being a summer album, but I can even see it being a spring album. The album art, it’s on the summer side but on the spring where you’re just relaxing, sitting by the water, like he’s on the rainbow. That’s spring vibes. He has some really powerful performances like “Range Brothers” with Kendrick Lamar

Your Summer Soundtrack: Malibu, ASTROWORLD, & Nothing Was The Same.

Ricardo: Into the summer part of this episode? I do have a couple. Drake’s Nothing Was The Same. You have a lot of heavy hitters on here. That straight summer vibe. “Tuscan Leather” is a great example of that. The way he comes in rapping gets you super hyped up, energetic, and it feels like you’re riding in a low rider in LA. Of course, there’s “Worst Behavior,” “Started From the Bottom,” “Hold On, We’re Going Home.” It has more of an evening, summer vibe. You’re on a yacht on the beach. Sun is setting. The smooth melodies Drake tends to hit, “305 To My City.” He has these energetic, hungry R&B, Rap performances that elevated this album to a summer experience. Looking at the cover, he’s got his head in the clouds. Talking about late night songs. “From Time,” “Furthest Thing”. The beautiful piano melodies of from Time. Drake telling this whole story of this girl that I used to be in love with and how we’re growing distant now. Jhene comes in with her beautiful R&B vocals.��

Gabe: One of the more underrated artists for sure.

Ricardo: It’s tough though because everybody’s always talking about SZA.��

Gabe: Since you brought up Nothing Was The Same. I wanted to bring up another classic, legendary album: good kid, m.A.A.d city by Kendrick.��

Ricardo: When I think about good kid, m.A.A.d city, I’m thinking of a movie. I never really thought of it as a summer album.��

Gabe: The album art itself where it has the van on the sidewalk and a blue sky day. That is a good picture of a hot summer day. I want something to cool you off like eating a popsicle on the sidewalk. Definitely not a summer song, but an honorable mention. I love “The Art of Peer Pressure” . It has a very interesting and relatable story to me. It’s a very good song.��

Ricardo: Yeah, man this album, classic.

Gabe: It is. Another two that are actual summer songs are ” m.A.A.d city” and “Swimming Pools”.��

Ricardo: I would say “Swimming Pools” is more like that late, night college party where you’re drinking yourself. I recently got into it actually and I told you about it. Anderson .Paak’s Malibu. I still go back to it. If you ever do get a chance to listen to it, I recommend: “The Season,” ” Without You,” ” Am I Wrong,” “Room In Here”. The melodies and pockets he hits through these songs makes you feel like you literally are on the beach and the sunsets coming down. He did a really good job on creating this summer sunset environment. Just listen to the production and the melodies he hits. I’m telling you, this is a perfect summer album.��

Gabe: Okay, I’m gonna have to listen to this then.

Ricardo: It’s almost like Flower Boy, but in a more summer concert experience.

Gabe: You definitely hyped it up. I’m gonna have to add it to my list. CALL ME IF YOU GET LOST. I don’t know what it is about it, but he definitely nailed the summer vibe with this one. There’s so many tracks on here. “SWEET” is a good one, “JUGGERNAUT” is a good, hype song.��

Ricardo: I still go back to it here and there. There’s still songs that pop up in my playlist, like “HOT WIND BLOWS” with Wayne. But one that always pops up every time I put my playlist on shuffle, I always get “WILLSHIRE” to pop up every single time.��

Gabe: Oh, an interesting pick that always pops up.��

Ricardo: It’s a great story. He really has me hooked throughout the entire eight minutes, talking about: oh, I met this girl, our eyes met, don’t think nobody noticed. Then, talking about having her in his car, sharing music. Him going on a date with some other actress, but him wanting to go back to this girl and then finding out that this girl actually had a boyfriend as well, but they were still seeing each other. About ASTROWORLD, when it dropped and before I got into Travis, a lot of people were saying that it was still one of his best albums and most iconic. Now I know why, I still have songs popping up on my playlist from this. Definitely “YOSEMITE”.��

Gabe: That one’s a good one. There’s other ones like “5% TINT.” Personally, all of these are fire. I like the bottom three as good closing tracks. ” BUTTERFLY EFFECT,” “HOUSTONFORNICATION,” and people aren’t really crazy about “COFFEE BEAN,” but I liked it. I think it’s a good closing track. I honestly have nothing else to say, it’s a good summer album.

Ricardo: Thank you so much for watching Let’s Talk Podcast Collective. Once again, I am your host, Ricardo Bravo. Gabe, thank you so much for being a part of this first episode of “The Rap Sheet”.��

Gabe: Not a problem. It was nice to be here.��

Kylo: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk ˿����Ƶ’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at . This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk Podcast collective as a collaborative effort between students, the accessible education and disability resources department, and the PCC multimedia department. We air new episodes on our home website, our Spotify channel, , 107.1 FM, and

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Miri Newman and Ricardo Bravo

Guest Introductions

Carrie: Why don’t we go around the room. Sharing about yourselves is great.

Leila: I’m Lee, a prevention peer educator with OAP. Based in the WRC at Cascade Campus. They/Him pronouns.��

Heather: I am Heather Hagelberger, the preventionist with OAP. I have been here since January of this year, so it’s been exciting to get to start this work with OAP and my pronouns are she/her.��

Michelle: My name’s Michelle and I am a student advocate with the Accessible Education and Disability Resources Center. My pronouns are her.��

Carrie: Hi everybody. My name’s Carrie. I am a transfer student for ˿����Ƶ. I work in Accessible Education Disability Resources. So thank you for agreeing to an interview for a podcast episode about relationships. I’m gonna go ahead and jump right into our interview questions. Heather and Lee, why don’t you guys tell us a little bit about the project and give us some background, feel free to throw in some of your own personal background as well. We’re here to talk about the Red Flag, Green Flag project specifically, but we also wanna be introduced to the office and the work that you guys do.��

The Roots of OAP at PCC

Heather: Yeah! So I can start a little bit with some history. OAP started back in 2019, before the pandemic. But prevention and advocacy work has been happening through the WRCs and the QRCs here at PC for stellar years prior to its inception. OAP stands for Outreach and Advocacy Project. I don’t think I’ve said that yet. So the WCS and the QCs recognized that students were needing support and confidential advocacy. So they went and got a grant to be able to start this project, it has just evolved from there. Started initially. With a focus on confidential advocacy, providing direct care and support to students who have experienced gender-based violence. By hiring me this year, we’ve been able to branch out into more of a prevention focus as well, which has been super cool. Being able to connect with our students and bring students on as prevention peer educators has been really neat. Lee, do you wanna talk a little bit about your journey to OAP?��

Leila: I am switching careers essentially. I came back to school to do the human services program at PCC. Crisis intervention and gender based violence trafficking, advocacy stuff has always been my niche. I don’t remember ever applying for OAP, but I applied for the QRC and the WRC. In those interviews they were like, you’d be great for OAP. I might have applied for OAP too. I don’t remember. It fits really well with what I am doing in my own work.

Why OAP Had to Exist

Carrie: Thank you for sharing that background. Tell us how you built this program and why you built it, and what kind of things you saw in the community that made you realize it was important to have a program like OAP. Then specifically the Red Flags in Green Flags Project, which I’m super fascinated by.

Heather: So the prevention piece of OAP stems from my personal experiences and my work experiences. Lee shared about their career change and why they’re back at school. I did that myself, probably close to 15 years ago where I was a nurse for several years. I went to nursing school, and that was what I thought I was gonna do. I wanted to help people and continued working, within the medical field, I came to realize that my passion was not in helping people with bandaids and moving on. It was trying to understand what was happening in their lives. What we can do to prevent these continued violations, these continued experiences of violence that they were experiencing. So I went back to school. I found myself learning about human trafficking, specifically sex trafficking. It was one of those things that hit me upside the head because for me, looking at my past and experiences, I knew I was very close to having that experience, personally, so I knew what helped me not be exposed to experiences like that and wanted to see where we as a society could potentially start making shifts in culture to make it safer for people so that those experiences. Those vulnerabilities weren’t reasons for people to harm others. So I started working with victims of human trafficking.��

Carrie: I see a large honorable goal, but you said you see vulnerable people and protecting them from being exploited. Can you talk about the types of vulnerabilities that you have seen or that are necessary to protect from being exploited? Because I think addressing who the community is, that’s gonna be a big part of our outreach as well.��

Heather: Sure. Honestly. It’s gonna sound really simple. But it’s a community. When we isolate others from being exposed to different thought processes, different ideals, we really start to isolate. People when they’re young and they’re vulnerable. It keeps them from being able to have critical thinking skills and understand how to have safe relationships with other people who might be different from them or who might have different experiences. When you don’t know how to deal with people who are different, it’s hard to say this in a way that doesn’t sound like I’m blaming anybody, ’cause I don’t wanna blame anybody.��

Carrie: If you don’t want it out on the air, just say take that part out. I’m a professional, but here the conversation can be a real promise?��

Heather: I’m just trying to make sure I’m saying things in a way that’s doesn’t sound like I’m pinpointing or anything,��

Michelle: You don’t wanna blame, but there is an aspect of accountability.��

Heather: Yes, there is. If we look at our systemic oppressions, everything that our systems are set up as. Systemic oppression affects all kinds of people in different ways. Prior to recording, we were talking about poverty and how easy it is for people to be kept in because of how the systems are set up. To help others who already have wealth to stay in that position, they’re able to continue to make that money. All that comes back to recognizing that community is important. I grew up in a community that stayed among the people who looked like us, and that was for safety reasons. I am a person of color, I know, this isn’t recorded like a video, so a lot of people don’t know what I look like. I am a person of color, I have indigenous roots. A female presenting person and society tells us how we’re supposed to behave, right? We were brought up in expectations of this is your role, how you behave. For myself and my family, they were wanting to push us into assimilation. Where we can be in the shadows as much as possible. Don’t draw enough attention to myself. Because it no longer is safe.��

Green, Red, & Beige Flags in Conversation

Carrie: So what I hear is a power dynamic.��

Heather: Absolutely!��

Carrie: The power dynamic you are interrupting is the dynamic which accepts and normalizes a cultural ownership of one person’s experience, and it can be a collective ownership. As in, you are a child, a woman. You are a property of this culture or an interpersonal relationship of this person. Which some cultures back up.

Heather: Hundred percent.��

Carrie: So we’re talking about power dynamics here and how people are controlled. You’ve seen a lot of control. A lot of this power is being wielded in probably unhealthy ways. That’s why we have the project.��

Heather: Absolutely��

Carrie: Tell us about the red flags, green flags.

Heather: I love that segue there, Carrie, because the power dynamics is the significant piece on this. October was , and it was also the start of our fall term here at PCC. So we decided to start off the term strong with a red flag, green flags of Healthy Relationships Campaign. The reason we decided to go with that is because it is linked to Domestic Violence Awareness Month, but it also helped us to do more than just say: Hey, we need to have healthy relationships. This actually allowed us to start having dialogue with students. We had different events that we tabled at where students were able to come and talk to us about their views of red and green flags. We were able to talk about what you do when you see a red or green flag. It was a great opportunity to take that step further of more than just here’s information, and how it looks in your life. If we wanna see culture shift in any way, we have to move beyond awareness and need to actually start shifting culture and looking at what that looks like. Part of that is through the interruption of power dynamics.��

Carrie: Can you define what a relationship flag is? Red or green, or any other color?

Heather: If we want to go to social media, we have red, beige, and green. Flags are like a spectrum. Relationships are a spectrum because people are on a spectrum, regardless of who we are. We’re never gonna do the same thing the same way every single time because culture and community influences how we move throughout our day on a regular basis. When we look at what a red flag is, that’s something that says pause. If we think about a red light on the street, it’s telling us to stop, look around, look for danger. It doesn’t mean that there is danger. It just means we need to pause and take a look. A green flag is hey, this is great. Let’s keep going, let’s keep moving, let’s keep learning, let’s keep growing. Then the beige flag, if we wanna pull that in, that’s really just a thing that someone does. It’s neither good nor bad necessarily.

Carrie: Which is a personal preference between two people. So it sounds like you’re using the word flag as a way to communicate with yourself when you’re in a relationship. And a flag can be something. That you notice like and decide that is a good direction to go in and put your energy into, it can also be something that you notice that you don’t like and you decide is dangerous for you to pursue and a beige flag can be something that you’re just learning about the other person you’re engaging with. And it is relevant information, but it isn’t information that’s going to, Inhibit or, support your personal health. It’s the other person.��

Heather: Absolutely. A beige flag would be, I don’t like to wear matching socks. Something that’s kind of irritating to my partner, but it’s not affecting anybody one way or another.��

Love Bombs & Blind Spots in Relationships

Carrie: Michelle, you throw one in there. What questions do you wanna know?��

Michelle: When is it safe or wise to check your flags? One of the questions I’ve seen was okay, do we jump in and marry this person? Wouldn’t that be your own personal red flag that you could see in yourself?

Heather: We need to live in a community where people are helping us see things that we might be blinded to. Because there’s also new relationship energy. Where you’re like, everything is amazing.

Leila: Every flag in a different color.��

Carrie: Rolling in green flags for the first 48 hours.��

Heather: So it helps to have people around you to keep you in balance, in check, because we don’t always recognize our own red flags. But what was interesting was doing this exercise. During the weeks of welcome, we had students who were. Maybe I do that sometimes. I don’t wanna do that. We were able to just have healthy conversations because behaviors are behaviors. The intent behind them is generally what we wanna look at, but we also wanna look at our impact. Sometimes our intent with love bombing a person isn’t the intent of trying to set them up for failure in this relationship, but more because we are so caught up in this new relationship energy that we wanna text them 20 times a day because we’re thinking about how amazing they are.

Leila: Love bombing isn’t always malicious.��

Heather: Exactly, that’s where we wanna say: these flags are always on a spectrum. You always wanna look at all of the things around it, not just see one thing unless the one thing really is something that’s harmful. Someone harms you intentionally, physically, emotionally, and assaults you in any way. We definitely wanna make sure. you are pausing, stopping, and you are reevaluating because your safety is the primary concern.��

Carrie: Let’s have that conversation. How do you learn to trust yourself? You mentioned community feedback in observing a situation. But I like what Michelle brought up, just seeing a green flag. It doesn’t mean you automatically jump in. Seeing a red flag, following that same logic doesn’t mean you automatically break things off and run away in the opposite direction. If you’re not me, ’cause that’s sometimes what I do. When we move into the topic of being trauma informed and coming from traumatic history maybe with relationships and why this office of advocacy outreach exists. There is a sad history of the power dynamic being exploited and it generally starts with red flags, then escalates. Someone just shows up one day and they’re an actual murderer.��

Leila: One thing that we saw a lot too when people were putting up the flags. A lot of people find red flags easy. But the green flag is where people paused a lot because it’s hard to think of what a green flag really is when you have no idea. Go back to the culture and how we were raised and everything. If you’re not taught what healthy relationships look like, you aren’t taught what green flags are. So then you walk around as if, either everything’s a green flag or everything’s a red flag.��

Heather: If you think about how relationships were shown in movies, even in music and TV shows. There’s so many toxic behaviors that are not healthy. We learned that’s what we thought relationships were supposed to look like. So now our whole society is starting to go: that’s not what we want. What are we supposed to be looking for? A lot of people don’t know, like Lee said. So this is a great opportunity for us to really talk about how we can find those healthy things. How can we hang on to those healthy things within all kinds of relationships, not just romantic relationships.

Hard Conversations, Healthy Relationships

Carrie: So you see a green flag or you see a red flag. You’re not love bombing, you’re not jumping right after it, and telling a person to go away. You are not frozen either. Time marches on. How do you have that conversation and say to somebody, look, I really like you. I wanna find out more about you. I want us to spend more time together. I want us to get married one day. I think more importantly, how do you have that conversation with somebody that says, well, that behavior made me feel very unsafe. I felt afraid when you said that, when you did that. How do you ensure your comfort and your needs are being met as you notice these flags? What is an appropriate way to bring that up?��

Leila: Definitely, if you’re afraid and worried about your own safety. Don’t have a conversation with the person alone.��

Heather: Yeah, a third mediator is always a benefit in those instances. What I would say to Lee’s point there though is: If you’re scared to have that conversation with that person on your own, I would wonder why are you scared? It could be internal, I hate conflict. Hate it with a passion, so I have had to learn within my own relationships, how do I manage conflict? While still feeling safe and comfortable within who I am as a person. There’s a lot of stuff that we hear, but we don’t always understand how to put it into practice. So an instance would be let’s say I was with my partner and we were driving. They had a little bit of road rage for a minute, started screaming at somebody and it scared me because I’ve had car accidents. People have hit me and it makes me super anxious anytime there’s any kind of thing happening in the car. So I would then approach my partner and because of the relationship I have with my partner, I would say: Hey, in that moment, I understand you were having a lot of big feelings. Those feelings caused me fear because of X, Y, and Z. So in the future, if you’re feeling those feelings, can we talk about how we can approach that so you can still express your feelings? In a way that I still feel okay, that I still feel safe that way. I’m not condemning that person for that feeling, but I’m also letting them know that type of behavior made me uncomfortable. If I start to see that they’re blowing up at the grocery store, blowing up at the DMV. Now I’m gonna start to see a pattern and that’s gonna cause me to go okay, something else is going on here. Red flag,��

Carrie: So fear is a super understandable emotion for many humans. What are some other emotions that could be associated with red flags but aren’t necessarily fear based or about danger? What if you’re grossed out or you feel offended? What are some other things to talk about and bring up if you just don’t like somebody?

Leila: Personality clashes are going to happen. That’s not necessarily a red flag, it’s just two personalities that don’t mesh with each other.��

Carrie: So it could be a healthy green flag to acknowledge the incompatibility, essentially.��

Heather: Why put yourself in a situation where there is a personality incompatibility that isn’t working if you’re constantly at odds with another person. Why wouldn’t you just say: Hey, this doesn’t work. We’re not communicating well. If we can’t figure out how to communicate, we probably shouldn’t communicate anymore. I wanna just honor the fact that while all of this sounds super easy to do. To put it all in practice, it’s hard. Because people are hard, people are complex. All of us have complex feelings. How I feel today can be very different from how I felt yesterday and how I’m gonna feel tomorrow depending on if I eaten, have I had enough sleep? Some days I wake up and my partner is the last person I wanna see because I didn’t sleep well. It has nothing to do with them. They just happen to be the first person I see. Sometimes we’re just not in good moods and to honor that and say: Hey, today’s just not a good day for me. I’m not fit to be around people. I need to just hang out over here. For me, that’s a huge green flag. For someone to be that self-aware and recognizing my emotional capacity is this, and it cannot be what it needs to be. In order to interact with you today, I cannot meet what you need, but I’m gonna honor you by telling you that. Then, I’m gonna remove myself from the situation so it doesn’t cause issues in the future. That’s another way that we can work through some of those feelings when it comes to red and green flags.��

Consideration is a Huge Green Flag

Carrie: What are some of the positive feelings that are more spectrum and less extreme or noticeable than feeling when you like somebody. The new relationship energy is obviously a huge green flag. We all love serotonin and dopamine. When we see the cute face, and that’s a green flag according to me, what are some more subtle green flags that you should start to look out for? Do they open the door for you? Do they ask if you want something from the grocery store?��

Heather: Yeah. Consideration is a huge one. Do you think about me during the day? Even if I don’t hear from you all day long, it’s a text at the end of the day. Hey, I know it’s been really busy, but I was thinking about you. It’s being open with communication. It’s saying I’m gonna have a really busy day today, and I’m not gonna be able to talk to you. Just want you to know I’m thinking about you. I’m not ignoring you. I’ll talk to you tomorrow, or tonight. Do you feel safe around that person? Is your nervous system calm? If your body is always tense, why? That would be my question. Sometimes it’s a personal thing within yourself, and sometimes it is around the energy you have, with the people you’re with. So I think there’s a lot of things that can be green flags that we don’t always talk about. We talk about all of those high intensity emotions when it comes to new relationship energy. But to keep a relationship going. Again, whether it’s romantic or friendship, you have to be intentional. Communicate, you have to understand what it is that they like, what they don’t like, and how that fits into your life. Are you free to share what you like or don’t like? If you’re not able to freely talk about your stuff too, then maybe that person is not the right person for you to be spending time with.��

Carrie: Can you address the power dynamics of it all? We’ve seen how power dynamics can go wonky and having disabilities or having differentials of power in one relationship. I think it’s pretty common and understandable to see power differentials in the workplace. For example, we’re all familiar with the concept of having a boss at work. Being American and modern, most people have this assumption that relationships should be equal. Many cultures don’t teach that. When it comes to interpersonal relationships, family dynamics, for example, What does masking have to do in relationships with red flags and green flags? How can you notice yourself being authentic or inauthentic, and why would that be happening?

Leila: I’ve been in a lot of therapy so I’ve talked to my therapist also about healthy relationships a lot. You can feel it in yourself, you’re not in a safe situation or with a safe person. That’s just learning the signs that your body is giving you which is difficult and it takes time to learn that. Not everyone has the ability to, it takes a lot of practice. But there are signs that you can tap into yourself to figure out: Is this right for me?

Heather: From my own personal experience, I have learned that being able to take my mask off and just be is such a freeing. I only want to surround myself with people who I can be like that now. For so long, I felt like I couldn’t, it wasn’t safe. So those relationships were very superficial because I couldn’t be myself and be able to really like one through therapy and a lot of building up of my own self-awareness and understanding how my brain works through trauma. The tension released and it was like: this is okay. This is safe and this person’s gonna still be here even after seeing me at my most vulnerable state. That’s an incredibly freeing situation and I hope everyone experiences that at least once in their life. Because being able to take the mask off, even for neurotypical people who present themselves as however society is wanting them to present themselves and not being able to feel like they can be themselves. It’s a wonderful gift to be around people who make your nervous system calm down.��

Leila: I am glad you brought up the neurotypical part, cause I’m in the process of learning 35 years of masking and it does a lot to the psyche and the body. I’m just now finally starting to not mask as much when out in public. The mask is still there, it’s always gonna be there, but, I think there’s also a level of: you just don’t care what people think. With the masking.��

Carrie: I’m literally living it up. I don’t care. I am telling grown men all the time, you are so dumb.��

Leila: I used to have such bad social anxiety, and the first time I went to PCC was in my early twenties. I couldn’t stand in front of the class to give a presentation without visibly shaking, and now I don’t care. So being able to remove that mask for the autism side, but also within relationships is the easy thing you can do for yourself.��

When Fawning Becomes Protection

Carrie: Can you talk about trauma responses and in particular, the fawning response and what that looks like. If you could define it. And, talk about when that comes into play. Then, we can also discuss how that relates to masking autism and power dynamics in society. How we’re all pretending like you said: it’s very typical to project what society wants us to be. We’re trained to think that if we perform we’ll be rewarded. We’re good monkeys.��

Heather: We always heard there’s no stupid questions, but everyone always knew that there were stupid questions. So if we wanna talk about it in a relationship aspect. Maybe something’s happening in your relationship that you’re not sure of, you’re not comfortable, but you’re not uncomfortable. Maybe it’s because you haven’t been in a relationship or you’re getting different mixed signals from that person. When we talk about fawning, people are pleased. It’s appeasing, basically just going with the flow of whatever’s happening until it’s almost too late to feel like you have control anymore of the situation. It is a response, a trauma response.��

Carrie: It’s fawning the same thing as being docile or not caring. A lot of people identify as I don’t really care. Is fawning in response to something specific.��

Heather: Fawning is generally a trauma response due to fears of rejection. Or because you have experienced violence in the past and maybe someone is exhibiting some behaviors that don’t necessarily look dangerous, but feel like they may escalate. So you immediately go into that fond response of: I just need to keep them calm, keep things chill. It’s almost like a preemptive crisis intervention without that acknowledgement. This situation feels uncomfortable, and so this is why I’m doing this. Most people, when they fall into Fawn, they don’t even know what’s happening. That’s where the situation could potentially get out of hand for them. Their nervous system is going into this response of: Something’s not comfortable and I’m gonna go, I just need to keep them happy. Then it’s like: This maybe isn’t gonna be okay for me. People can wind up in dangerous situations long term because they’ve been fawning the whole time and not even recognizing that’s been happening.��

Leila: I like fawning with the red and green flags because that’s a trauma response that you’re doing, but to the other person, that’s a red flag. If you’re doing the people pleasing and they see that. It can be very obvious.��

Carrie: Something that comes to my mind right now, and we all have it in our circles and friendships. The person who’s always apologizing needlessly. Sorry, Sweetie, you don’t have anything to apologize for. Don’t realize they’re fawning. You’re not in an interpersonal relationship with them. So that is a social behavior called fawning. What is a fawn response in reaction to an immediate trigger? So something in the room is happening. What does that look like? Is it appeasing the trigger? The source of the trigger and trying to make that deescalate? Is it, removing or diminishing yourself in ways that are going to deescalate. Make you less of a target, or more compatible to that power dynamic, which requires you to be subjugated in some way.

Leila: Family can turn into triangulation easily. What is triangulation? Triangulation is a system in which a person that is abusing another uses a third party to help them target an individual.��

Carrie: I see.��

Leila: So they’re all in relationship with each other, and the accomplice. To the abuser is, helping push the abuse even further. Hmm.��

Heather: That made me think of a nineties movie. I’m pretty sure it’s: Where there’s a girl. They did the whole ugly duckling thing, she wears glasses and therefore she’s not attractive. As soon as the glasses are off and she does her hair, she’s beautiful. There were two guys in the movie if I remember correctly. One of them was the person who was targeting the girl to make her be the most beautiful person to become the prom queen. The other guy was egging him on, driving the whole situation. When the dynamic between the first guy and the target girl started to change and the guy started to have genuine feelings for her. The third guy then made the effort to disrupt that even more by going around and making sure she knew that it was a bet So that happens in real life. That’s high school romance. When I saw the end of it the other day, I was just like: What? Why did we think this was okay? It’s devastating. So fawning. The way it shows up can be different for so many people. We’re talking in the room, something’s happening. I think that also depends on what is happening. Fawning could be something as simple as: Lee is escalated and I’m slowly backing myself out of the room because that’s concerning for me. But it also might look like me saying to Lee: Hey, you’re getting a little agitated. Are you hungry? it’s the motivation, if I am not threatened by Lee, but I’m seeing that Lee is getting escalated, I might try to say: Hey, I’m noticing your energy is changing. Is there something that you need? Something you’re upset about? I can go into a crisis intervention mode with a full set of ideas and solutions to support and deescalate. If I’m fawning, I’m looking at what’s gonna keep me safe. That is what I’m looking at. Not how do I help Lee, it’s how do I stay safe. We will show up in a way that is what am I doing to keep me safe in this situation?��

The Work Starts Inside

Carrie: We talked about when, how, and what it looks like to observe your flags. What about when you should be ignoring your flags? Because speaking for myself, I’ve got some C-PTSD, sure. That tells me some really insane narratives about random situations according to a trigger. A trigger can be, anything at all. It can be my dog interrupting a train of thought because they stopped to smell a bush. It feels like I’m being grabbed by the wrist and that is a physical sensation that reminds me of a trigger. If I’m paying attention to my flags and I’m acting on my flags, I would be a red flag, Charlie, you smell the bush. What are some other situations in human relationships?��

Michelle: I don’t know, something that’s triggering to you, but just acknowledging what you’re feeling. I think that’s probably important to acknowledge what you’re experiencing and then be in the moment.��

Heather: I think that one of the things that people, especially those of us who have C-PTSD or any trauma related situations or diagnoses, don’t like. As soon as we get those feelings triggered, we wanna run, but that doesn’t allow us to grow. That doesn’t allow us to truly understand why within us. Yes, that person still might be a person that we don’t need to spend time with anymore. That’s okay. But there are times, like you said, that it’s not necessarily them, it’s that they have done something that has triggered us. So we have to sit in our feelings. Dig into that route, find out what that wound is, work through that, and then go to that person and say, not when you’re emotional. You wanna truly understand what’s happening within yourself at that moment. Then, go to that person and say, again, we go with those eye statements. When this happened, I felt triggered. It triggered my mother’s wound, my father’s wound, my inner child. But if you can get to that point and understand it. Cool, but you share that and how that person responds tells you if it truly was a red flag or if it’s within yourself. If I can come to Carrie and say, Carrie, when you said this statement last week, it really activated me. This is why, that doesn’t mean it was your fault. It’s just sharing when you said that, it caused me some feelings. In those feelings, maybe I said something that was not great and I wanna apologize, or I had to excuse myself and you didn’t understand why, that felt disconnected. I wanna come back, do that reconnection, say it’s because of what I was experiencing. I’m gonna own my feelings and recognize that was not your intent. You give that opportunity to say: my bad. Someone who wanted to do something on purpose would say: I don’t know.

Leila: The last relationship I was in, I was talking about red flags, green flags with her. I don’t know. I can’t find any red flags. That itself is a red flag.��

Heather: I wanna acknowledge that therapy is a privilege. Shout out to PCC counseling who you can go to.